[chiselchst]

I was interested in what the procedure was for devolping a custom MAP for a '02 bagger Delphi injected bike with a PCIIIr. My bike runs really well, but I think I wanna have a custom MAP made. The mileage in the high 30's doesn't bother me, I just want to ensure it's running at the best A/F ratio throughout the band.

What is the drill? How long will it need to operate at full throttle? Do they do all the dyno'ing in 5th gear? Will it put substantial wear on my engine (like full throttle max RPM for extended periods)?

Is the software pretty good, or does the tech's knowledge really make the difference.

Any info appreciated...

 

[HIPPO]

It's a pretty painless process, basically just a couple of dyno runs, but it can only be done on a 250 Dynojet or a 200 Dynojet with the eddy current module and map building software and AFR monitor module added.

Keep in mind you can only build a fuel map with the software, if you want or have the need to build a ignition map it still has to be done manually.

While the dyno operator has to know what he is doing, the software does the work. There are some judgment calls involved.

You could just have a run on one of these dynos, without building a map, and see how the AFR curve and the dyno graph itself look. If it is pretty much where it should be call it a day. I'm generally not a proponent to mess with things that seem to be working.

Typically you would do the run in 4th gear, but there is no reason it could not be done in 5th, and I believe that in the specific case of building a map this might be the preferred option. The wear and tear on the engine is negligible, no different from full power takeoffs we do all the time.


If you want to do a bunch of runs for some other reason you can use these dyno's in accelerometer mode and this is much easier on the bike.
No big deal.

The cost of building a map is really no reflection on the time spent on the dyno, the machines have to be paid for somehow unless it is a pure hobby shop.

 

[yzf996fxdwg]

Along these lines.........I'm having my bike built to 95 and heads and stuff and have a PC111r and am wondering if there is any concern about dyno tuning a bike with a fresh top end? Seems a bit of a hard way to start life.

 

[chiselchst]

Once Again -- Thanks Hippo...

Thanks for the reply, Hippo. Seeing on how it's running really well, you just saved me the hassle (and a few bucks).

The closest place to me with a dyno, doesn't exactly have the best rep.

You mentioned a place you liked in OR. Is that Oregon? If so, can you e-mail me the info on that place? I might stop in when up North...I need a road trip, and love the PNW anyway.

Thanks, Hippo!

 

[HIPPO]

Greg is one of the smartest and experienced Harley EFI guys in the country.


As far as putting a just built bike on the dyno there could be some concern depending on how things are finished and clearanced. If you are using off the shelf parts it might not be a bad idea to just load a safe map and put a few miles on it before putting it on the dyno.

We use a Nascar type plateau hone finish and proprietary clearances, as well as parts that have already been heat cycled, so I'm not worried about it.

 

[tsuter]

It sounds like you're locked in on the PC but if not, use the new SE EFI Tuner. Then you want a dual probe sniffer on that exhaust gas analyzer on the dyno also. Run the probes left and right up as far as you need to get past the splitters. The CO, AF and lambda will be different on each. That's what you want to watch as well as how the EFI spark retard kicks in differently on the front and rear. Sometimes we ignore that these cylinders are back and front not side by side and need to be independently tuned. I mean both spark advance and VE - air/fuel. That's what you do with the new tuner. Depending on cylinder heads, index the plugs first towards the intake valves.
If you start a completely new calibration MAP set everything at AF of 13.5 and go from there, but best to start wilh something close off the CDROM.
I run a 2002 FLHTCUI 1550 Stage I and have made eight calibration changes so far to get it just where I want it.
On the dyno I do three data maps.
1. Acceleration/load at WOT- 4th gear rollon from 1500-6000.
2. Throttle Percentage -4th gear throttle percentage 25%, 50%, and 75% also 1500-6000 for each.
3. Cruise- 4th gear 2500 - 5000 in 250RPM increments holding till steady at each RPM.
With the data maps from the EFI tuner on these and the dyno EGA data you will be in business.
Now if HD would just put an oxygen sensor at each exhaust mainifold we almost would'nt need that EGA and Dyno at all!

 

[yzf996fxdwg]

Ya, the tuner sounds great. If anyone in the great white north new how to use it or had heard of it. My dealer doesn't know nuch about it and the mechanic at the PC tuning centre obviously isn't too high on it so I'm going with what seems the best bet at this time for me.

 

[tsuter]

Anybody who gets the SE EFI Tuner and gets stuck - give me a shout or open a new topic. Most dealers are still afraid of it and think they'll loose revenue. It fact they'll probably make money as they can probably sell more Dynojet time that they ever though possible.
It won't fix mechanical problems or bad combinations of aftermarket stuff.

 

[HIPPO]

Makes you wonder sometimes. Last week they opened a new multimillion dealer facility around here, and they are opening another one in a week or so.
Neither has a dyno, and the shop equipment other then the lifts looks like it came from WalMart.
Goes to show you where the priorities are. Same as it always has been, the Gods give bread to those that have no teeth.



TS, what pipes are you running on that thing?, reversion "CAN" throw you a loop with stock head pipes, you know. Look at the Y pipe.

 

[HIPPO]

The last phrase refers to building a PC fuel map off a dyno's software, not to building a map with the EFI tuner.

 

[tsuter]

Stock headers to SE One Piece Slash Cut Performance mufflers. Did clean out the weld on the inside of the rear exhaust header where they split. Some nasty intrusion in there needed polishing.
Used the Dyno to get CO, AF and lambda reading for the above mentioned runs. Simultaneous data record on the EFI tuner of all the input metrics.
The basic tuning steps were:
1. Eliminate ignition retard picked up by the Tuner in all ranges by adjusting the front or rear cylinder VE map.
2. Then up the AF ratio for both cylinders together to flatten the AF curve from the Dyno AF data map.
3. Then Advance front and or rear ignition in some areas until spark retard comes back.
4. Then adjust VE or AF or retard to make it go away.

To get it right takes 4-8 iterations and how you tune depends on whether you are tuning for high end performance and acceleration (racing) or hiway riding where the focus is more in the 2000-3500 RPM area.

 

[HIPPO]

Your approach makes a lot of sense, when using the EFI tuner.

What I was referring to in the original post and in the clarification note was the different approach when building a Power Commander fuel map off the dyno's software as per the original inquiry. OEM headpipes have a significant amount of reversion due to the fact perhaps 80% of total exhaust volume exits thru the right side canister, and it's best just to block the left pipe temporarily and take the readings from the right side. Obviously you could weld O2 sensor bungs in the head pipes and probe each cylinder individually and offset the map, but this goes beyond what people are willing to pay for on street applications.


Are you using a wide range UEGO sensor AFR meter or a 5 gas infrared?

 

[tsuter]

EASE Diagnostics GAS 5000 model with EASE Diagnostics Gas Analysis Software. This is a 5 gas EGA but since it isn't mine and I just rent the time so to speak I don't know much about it. I do get a probe on both sides and the variables I look for are CO, lambda and AF. Don't care about the others. The data is mainly for finding out where I'm running too rich. Hate to waste that gas. The EFI tuner data record has all the necessary input data for everything on both cylinders except identifying where its unnecessarily rich. CO and AF will get that for you.
If HD put oxygen sensors in the exhaust maifolds and a temp sensor on the back cylinder - true closed loop management I wouldn't have to fool with anything except the tuner. Wouldn't even need the Dyno except to do more iterations faster.
I don't know much about the Power Commander but my guess is that it's now obsolete for EFI tuning, There is no way you can beat changing the tables directly and the data to do it accurately is quite good other than the open loop business. Forget the EGA I guess you could just have the guy behind you look for black smoke.

 

[HIPPO]

Yes, tend to agree the Power Commander is obsolete now on the Delphi bikes (like the 02 touring bikes), despite the fact that the EFI tuner lacks the ability to automatically build a fuel map off one dyno run.

If the EFI tuner would have had this ability built into it, say off a 250 Dynojet, end users would have gained much more from it when having work done at a dealer.
As it is the EFI tuner is a marvelous tool for the owners that have the capability of doing their own thing, but from what I have seen so far it's like hanging a natural pearl necklace on a pig when having the work done at a dealer. It may change down the road, but I just doubt their willingness to spend the necessary time.

There are still quite a few owners that modify the older Marelli bikes and for those, where there are no Power Commander incompability issues, the PC is a great tool in the hands of someone that truly understands it. Other then the absent data mode it does have the ignition map and cylinder offset capabilities buried in the advanced mode, and the ability to build a good fuel map of basically a single dyno run is significant.

Other then the data mode which is a great tool in particular for private individuals, the greatest plus of the EFI tuner over the PC is the fact no serial module stays on the bike eliminating all incompatibility issues.
These issues are not a major thing, but they originate with the extreme sensitivity of the Delphi bikes to set data codes.

Guess one can never have it all.