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Discussion Starter #1
So I upgraded my camchest over the winter with the Feuling HP+ kit and 525 cams. High flow camplate and oil pump, hydraulic tensionsers, new chains lifters, adjustable pushrods all new. New 2 into 1 V+H pro pipes. I did all the wrenching, everything went smoothly though adjustable pushrods are a PITA. Bike was dyno tuned at a local speed shop, got 90hp 92 torque. Not bad.

Pulls much harder, pretty pleased...then...started blowing oil out the pushrod tubes. Guy at the speed shop said maybe the new pump just increased the oil pressure so try venting the tank. So I installed the feuling tank vent. I also read on here and a few other places where guys run their bikes low on oil after upgrading pumps. Wasn't thrilled with that idea but I ran it for a while almost at the bottom of the "range" on the dipstick. Seemed fine but as the weather has warmed up I get the feeling the bike is running hotter than usual. Well there is that new rear header pipe that comes out under my right leg...so maybe it's that.

So I was planning a road trip next week and did an oil change. Ended up topping it off almost to the top of the dipstick range. Went for a ride and she puked oil out the vent tube. Huge mess. Very little in the breather though...

So called Feuling and they said I need to do a leak down test and wet sumping test. Speed shop said he doubts it's wet sumping because he would have noticed on the dyno unless it just developed the problem. He recently had one doing the same thing as mine and it ended up being lead down issue.

Did the leak down test yesterday the way I was told. Rode the bike until it was at operating temperature. Actually rode for a while. Came home and immediately pulled the crank case drain plug. I was told I should get 4-6oz of oil. When I pulled the plug it came gushing out and filled the 16oz up I had under it and continued with what looked. like a total purge to me. I checked the dipstick and it was dry. Opened the oil pan plug and just a drip or two to verify it was empty.

So obviously it is wet sumping but I got a leak down test gauge this morning and checked it anyway. I got about 15% on the front cylinder and about 10 on the rear.

I opened the camchest this morning before the leak down tester came because I figured I must've boogered up an o-ring or something. Everything looked perfect. The discharge o-ring was fine and all o-rings inside the pump were fine.

Could there be an issue with the oil pressure relief valve in the camplate? How can I check that?

Anyone have any other ideas for me? Why would it be sumping if there's no issue in the cam chest? The leak down wouldn't cause that right? Just cause pressure in the crankcase and tank right?
 

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Suction oring down in the bottom. Two rings in the case face, one sucks and one blows. Past that take a look at the scavenge side of the pump and make sure everything is installed correctly and nothing is missing. Make sure the plate and pump housing are machined correctly. For that much oil to collect, the cam plate would prolly need to be missing a block off plug.

Twincams have been sumping since 1999, it just seldome kills the motor or pukes bad, so people don't notice.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for responding Therm. I hoped you would see this. I thought the same thing regarding the amount of oil that came out. I figured I'd find the scavenge o-ring bugggered up or out of place when I opened it but when I pulled the pump it was sitting right there inside the hole where it should be... Something has to have been wide open between the case and the oil tank right?

My pinion runout was .0002 so that shouldn't be an issue and I think I did the pump alignment correctly but will focus on that more when I put it back.

When you say. "Suction oring down in the bottom." are you referring to the scavenge hole o-ring? And yes I have two smaller o rings in the case on the left side. The only port in the camplate that Feuling mentions blocking is where one of those O rings is in the boss that apparently some builds of the motor do not have. Mine does have the boss so i put in the o ring and left the port open. No other mention of blocking any ports in the instructions but honestly the instructions kind of suck and I guess Feuling is closed today for the holiday.

There is one o ring inside the pump between the two halves and one where it meets the cam plate. Both were fine when disassembled as were the other 3.

"Twincams have been sumping since 1999, it just seldome kills the motor or pukes bad, so people don't notice." I guess that's why some guys run them low huh?
 

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OK on further inspection. I find that the hole in that boss is not open with a screen as feuling describes it but is actually closed off inside. I did install the o ring there and they say it's not required but you can block the indicated hole in the camplate for "added security" I'm thinking I need to put a pipe fitting in there and close it off since it's a dead end. Maybe excess pressure is forcing oil out around that o ring? That's all I can see. Every other opening in the cam plate matches up with a corresponding one in the case. Only other issue I can imagine is oil pump misalignment causing cavitation so I'll pay closer attention when I put it back together. Guess I'm waiting until I can get that plug from feuling... no road trip Monday...


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And you need to check that the pump lines up with the hole that is beside the upper left pump bolt in that photo. That hole is lower in some plates, and the pump used has to match.
 

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therm beat me to it,,, do as he says,,, you will locate the issue,,,, im inclined to believe an o ring isnt sealing,,, and/or an issue at the cam plate,,, problems are rare, but,, its a harley, and some have rare solutions to everyday issues,,, ,ever close your mind, until you find the problem
 

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On a feuling I install the pump on the plate then load it, just my method. Your leak down numbers are not good and you have a sumping issue. The feuling can be a little tricky to get the pump extension with twin orings in without issues. I use oring grease on them but any lithium grease should do fine. Now the leakdown, heads get blamed but rings are usually the culprit. If you have an A motor later than 2000 the oil hole boss is not drilled. An oring there keeps the oil from getting out. That hole is a feed for B motors with a balancer.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
On a feuling I install the pump on the plate then load it, just my method. Your leak down numbers are not good and you have a sumping issue. The feuling can be a little tricky to get the pump extension with twin orings in without issues. I use oring grease on them but any lithium grease should do fine. Now the leakdown, heads get blamed but rings are usually the culprit. If you have an A motor later than 2000 the oil hole boss is not drilled. An oring there keeps the oil from getting out. That hole is a feed for B motors with a balancer.
Thanks for chiming in Terry.

I did install the pump on the plate finger tight then went through the alignment process Feuling recommends.

Pump extension with twin o rings? If this is the part that goes into the scavenge hole in the case mine only had ONE o ring supplied. Should it have 2? There was no mention of that in the installation instructions. If I did that correctly then it shouldn't be cavitating and should be scavenging properly right? That's why I suspected that o ring on the boss. I'm going to get a plug on Monday and plug that oil passage just to eliminate that concern.

The leak down...How bad is that? I can't find much info on Harley specific leakdown but general combustion motor advice I find is 10% is acceptable, up to 20% is borderline and over that definitely needs a rebuild. I was considering some top end work this winter so I'd like to hold off on that if I can.
 

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10-15% is acceptable. Past that you need to think about spending some money. More than 20% is really going to have an impact on the motor. Rougher idle, less power, more oil pushed out.

Motor is supposed to be close to operating temps when you do it, so that the rings are expanded. Just be sure to loosen the spark plugs while the motor is cold.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
10-15% is acceptable. Past that you need to think about spending some money. More than 20% is really going to have an impact on the motor. Rougher idle, less power, more oil pushed out.

Motor is supposed to be close to operating temps when you do it, so that the rings are expanded. Just be sure to loosen the spark plugs while the motor is cold.
OK so my leak down may not be as bad as previously indicated. I didn't think about warming it up first but that obviously makes sense that heat would expand the rings. I'll retest it when I get the camchest put back together and fire it up. Never had any issue that I was aware of with leakdown until I did this camchest upgrade.

Anything else I should check out before I close it up? Hoping to do that tomorrow after I talk with the Feuling tech again. Only thing I found that was suspect is that open channel that SHOULD be managed by the o ring. All else looked fine to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Turns out the bottom left cam plate/crankcase bolt hole with the dowel ring was stripped and probably not holding. With an oil channel above and below I (and the feuling tech) believe that to be the source of the wet sumping. So I put it all back together last night. Went for a test run this morning and didn't get a mile before it started blowing oil out the breather and maybe the top of the pushrod tubes? hard to tell so much oil everywhere. Really didn't get much out of the breather tubes before so that kind of confirms my suspicion that I wasn't getting much oil up to the top due to the plate/sumping issues. Now I'm back to square one though. Going to get an oil pressure gauge on it and see what I get. Run the leak down test again. I feel like the cam chest is all square but I'll do a sumping test again too. Right now I'm so annoyed I don't want to even look at her.
 

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Right now I'm so annoyed I don't want to even look at her.
Been there. Done that. Just keep thinking how good it'll be when you're done.

A second bike to ride comes in handy, too.

Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Been there. Done that. Just keep thinking how good it'll be when you're done.

A second bike to ride comes in handy, too.

Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk
How was yours resolved?
 

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Drill it out and put a thread insert in. Better than new.

Tape it up

Drill it out

Tap it

Put the thread insert in with some red locktite

I like to put some silacon greas on a bolt then torque it to the spec for what ever it is, and let the lock tight cure over night.
Sets the threads under load, and keeps the threads from coming out with the bolt next time you take it apart.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Pretty much what I did but I used some plastic sheeting I had laying around and a little less tape.

Just ran the sumping test again and got about 12 0oz of oil this time but running down the road to warm it up I musta gotten at least 6 oz all over the right side of the bike and soaked the leg of my jeans from the knee down. My wife saw the jeans when I was in the garage and threatened me with violence if I brought them anywhere near her new washing machine so I guess they're going in the garbage.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
So the speed shop I've used for some work and my dyno tune can't even take the bike right now because they're out of space and it will likely be August before they can get to it. That's just not gonna work for me. There's really no other shops around he area that I trust and I'm definitely not taking it to the dealer, even if they would work on it.

So, I'm pulling the tank today and lifting the rocker boxes to start. I'll take a look at those breather valves and see how bad they look then go from there... I mean worst case I can do the wrenching here and take the heads to a machine shop if they require work. Not sure what direction I'll go on the pistons, rings, jugs if they need work or replacement. I've considered something like the S&S 98" kit but may just stick with close to OE pistons/jugs and do a little head work for more compression.

This bike has has been rock solid reliable since I've owned it and I just want to get back to that as a baseline. Any performance increase will be evaluated for ROI of fun vs expense. haha

Any advice or opinions welcome.

I guess this is still too much oil in the sump to hope that it's just bad flapper valves right?
 

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Dannyboy, Get a gallon of Simple Green, put those jeans in a bucket of 50/50 mix of Simple Green and water, let them soak overnight, then you can wash them with no issues from momma!
 
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He is what happened with my 05 when I put the new pump in... Had the same sumping issue, found I used the wrong o ring on the pump. Yes you can put a pushrod cover ring in there, but mine caused the pump to leak on the suction port. Bought a James gasket kit and used the different color ring. Pump was much more firm to put in, so much more pressure in squishing the ring. Solved the issue.

With that much oil, you should notice a drop in power and difficulty to gain revs., mine was a dog above about 3000 rpm when it was sumping. Next time I get out to the garage I'll grab a picture of the extra gasket set I bought, yes I assumed I'd be in there a third time and didn't want to wait for another gasket set to arrive. I have a thread on the problem in here, might have pictures of the two different rings.

(Edit) here is my thread Lack of power stock 2005 88ci.

Hope my pain will help find yours.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Thanks for the link Greg. Good stuff. Weird part is I never felt any change in power after the install and neither did the dyno tuner. He says there's no way it was sumping when he tuned it because he would have noticed. It dyno'd 90/92 and with almost full torque from 1800-5500. All was fine for maybe 500 miles then it started to push oil out the pushrod tubes and a little out the breather. The crankcase breather helped but only if I ran it low on oil then after I cracked the chest again and fixed the bolt hole/torque as noted above it started blowing massive amounts of oil into the breather.

I used the o rings feuling supplied with the camchest kit and they all looked perfect when I pulled it back apart. None pinched or malformed. The scavenge port o ring fits very snug. If I tried putting it in the hole then inserting the pump it wouldn't even work. Feuling says oring on pump attached to plate then install so that's how I did it both times. I feel pretty confident the cam chest is buttoned up well with no issues unless there's some machining issue and the parts don't fit correctly. Feuling has offered to bench test everything if I want to pull it back out and send to them. Now that I've pulled the top end off I may just go ahead and take them up on that before putting it all back together.

So today I pulled off the rocker boxes and heads. The umbrella valves on the head breathers look ok, flappy soft rubber, no tears or anything. The front cylinder had about a 1/4 cup of water in it. How the hell does an air cooled engine get that much water in there? Haven't even ridden in the rain in months. The tops of both pistons are thick with carbon as are the exhaust valves. Before I did this camchest upgrade I had a micro efi tuner on the bike and I always felt like it was running too rich.

Here are a few pictures. Order is front head, two pics of front cylinder/piston, rear head,rear piston top.

Any opinions and advice greatly appreciated.


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