[Ed Y]

Just ran across this link on another forum. Anyone have any experience or thoughts on using these.

Here's the link:

 

[Guest]

My thought is that they are providing "before" HP/torque figures for a completely stock motor and "after" numbers for their Smart Valves PLUS "10.5/1 cr pistons, PowerCommander, 2 into 1 Thunderheader, stock head, stock TB, and a Screamin' Eagle 257 camset". Typical marketing ploy.

What you REALLY want to know is how the HP/torque figures are affected when the only addition is the Smart Valves, either to the stock setup or with all the above mods.

 

[HIPPO]

Some time ago Charlie bought some of them and we were going to play with them.
I had some conversations with some technical people and got to the point where we did some flowbenchwork with them and I'm convinced that they can work.
Then Charlie decided to move to a new and larger shop and buy some more equipment and it forced me into projects that produce revenue now as opposed to potentially down the road.
I still expect to get some time to play with them after the first of the year but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place because I can't afford to finance the necessary testing out of my own pocket. Haven't even had the time to try them in my own bike yet.

 

[SIN]

What you REALLY want to know is how the HP/torque figures are affected when the only addition is the Smart Valves, either to the stock setup or with all the above mods.[quote/]

I also would like to see the improvements under more comparable engine configuration.
It just seems to simple but, then again somtime the simple solution often gets overlooked.

 

[HIPPO]

I think you are missing the point when you expect a huge improvement replacing nothing but the valves, even though there might be some.

It is more the sort of thing that would allow you to build a extremely radical engine from a cam point of view without the low end downside you would expect.

 

[SIN]

Yes not only did I miss the point I missunderstod the engine configuration. The test was conducted on the engine with only adding the smart valves.
The first test was NOT on a stock motor. I didn't read thru the whole website and was to quick to post.

I cut this from the site:
The full exploitation of the benefits and advantages of variable timing with Smart Valves, will result in a very conservatively estimated performance enhancement in the range of 5-16% on the peeks, and an average torque increase from idle to peek HP/RPM in the range of 7-22%.

That's very good for what they quote at around $300 understanding that they were most likely under ideal operating enviorment.

This is very interesting I wonder how many miles they would last ? only 10k Mi. on test bikes.

 

[SIDEKICK]

maybe somebody will come out with solenoid operated valve train.
free's up a bunch of power just by eliminating all the parasitic losses that turning a cam against the rest of the valve train imparts,infinitely variable valve timing, less mechanical parts etc..

 

[HIPPO]

Kick, Cummins was already running a experimental engine with them on the big trucks that raced up Pikes Peak. BMW in Germany also has working prototypes.
Might be a while before we see it on a motorcycle though.

 

[Ed Y]

Interesting comments, guys. I sorta figured they were something new but I guess they've been around for a while. I'm very curious about how long they will hold up. From the info at the web site, I get the idea they haven't been in HD's that long.

 

[Maj]

I can see how that design could yield performance improvements - especially like Hippo mentioned with the use of high overlap cam profiles. My concern would be longevity. The floating seat is quite thin and subject to wear, misalignment and carbon deposits - any of which would cause leaks or defeat the operation/benefits of the valve.

I can remember reading an article in Popular Science, jeez, musta been around 30 years ago, about solenoid controlled valves. Some dude built an engine that didn't need a starter - a computer determined which piston was closest to the compression stroke, injected fuel, closed the valves in that cylinder, slightly opened the valves in all the other cylinders (like a compression release), and then fires off a spark to the charged cylinder. Of course, once running all the valve lift, duration and ignition timing were optimized for conditions. The article stated that the technology was destined to become mainstream by the 80s and 90s (fifteen or so years away then)! That techology sure has been slow to emerge. Must be much more complicated than it seems.

 

[supersport]

The starting af a gasoline powered internal combustion engine without the assistance of an electric starter motor isn't really cutting edge technology. I've seen a 1912 Ford model T start on the introduction of spark alone. The engine was in a fine state of tune and the timing was just so for this to take place as Maj pointed out in the previous post, but it could be repeated. Not every time, but could be done time and time again if all involved was correct.

 

[Agcatman]

I can see how that design could yield performance improvements - especially like Hippo mentioned with the use of high overlap cam profiles. My concern would be longevity. The floating seat is quite thin and subject to wear, misalignment and carbon deposits - any of which would cause leaks or defeat the operation/benefits of the valve.

I can remember reading an article in Popular Science, jeez, musta been around 30 years ago, about solenoid controlled valves.

Cadillac offered a solenoid controlled valve setup in the early 80's. It was their much ballyhooed 8-6-4 system. The car would start off firing 8 cylinders and as speed increase solenoids would force the valves into the open position and it would hit on 6 cylinders, then when cruise was established it turned into a 4 banger. Good idea on paper but the concept sucked in practice. A friend of mine's mom had one. It was an expensive piece of golly-gee whiz-bang crap.

 

[Maj]

Yeah Steve, I remember what a flop that Caddy engine was. That design was more about saving fuel by shutting down cylinders than it was about electronically controlling lift and duration via a solenoid. Caddy had a bad application of the technology.

 

[Thealien]

They actually reprogrammed them to run on all eight all the time. I had an eldorado with the reprogrammed 4/6/8 and had no problems with it. I also heard they were junk.

 

[barrybasinger]

follow up request

Hippo:
Did you ever get a chance to do anything with those variable valves? I'd like to run later intake closing, but don't want to give up any more bottom and can't comfortably go with any more compresson. These might be the answer, if they work and last more than a month.

 

[usdm]

Not HIPPO, but.....

Assuming that the valves are installed properly, they will last more than a month However, the dcr will change somewhat, since the cylinders tend to retain a bit more fuel and air for compression stroke. Going with smaller jets and some timing retard, seems to be the trick to gettting everything up to snuff. Every engine is different, however, so you'll probably want to have the thing dyno tuned for the best results.

 

[barrybasinger]

Thanks for your response.

Here's kinda the sort of thing I'm hoping to find out:
- Do they install with normal tools and techniques? Same for seat installs?
- I assume dcr is somewhat higher, as compared to standard valves, due to the "earlier closing" sort of thing that's going on? Is there some rule-of-thumb for guessing how much it will change? If my effective ratio is around 9.2-9.3:1 now, will it go to 9.5, 9.6, 15:1, or what?
- What kind of effect can one expect on the breathing--as a general rule? If my .053 intake timing was 16/52, would it act like if was 16/48, for instance, or what?
- Etc., etc.

Been looking for someone other than the guy who's selling them who has actually played with them a little. I'm real interested in these, but not if they don't do much or last very long. (I do still want to maintain my touring capabilities, and I don't particularly want to replace valves and seats each Winter).

 

[Ed Y]

BB:

Go to www.bikerheaven.com tech forum. A guy on there by the name of Dan has installed them and is waiting to dyno test.

 

[Cold Rider]

Ed, You're considering these also depending on what Dan finds out, aren't you........LOL

 

[Ed Y]

Cold Rider: No, I'm just going to stay with stock 88". It's done me good so far. I am curious how they will hold up after lots of miles though. Guess we won't know that for a while though.