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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I want to put a set of Vance and Hines Big Shot Staggered on my 2006 Softail Standard. I Will go with a Screamin Eagle or Arlen Ness Big Sucker air cleaner. What is the best, and easiest fuel tuner. (for lack of better words)
I want to do the work myself but am not the best with computers. I could upload a program from a laptop to the bike, but I prefer to keep the dealer out of it. Now do all programs require final tune in by the dealer to run right, or do they run good after the download.
 

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The Anti-RUB
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Both air cleaners are very easy to install, as well as work very well. I'd suggest getting a K&N air cleaner element (part # HD-0800) if you go with the SE A/C. Don't know what comes with the Arlen Ness Big Sucker. If you search around the forum for a poormans air cleaner you'll find some postings I made about what parts you would need to make your own SE A/C. If you buy the parts seperately you can get the same parts from the kit for around $80, instead of the $130 for the kit. Only thing you won't get are the install instructions, which are pretty hand/important.

I am running the same setup as you right now except my bike is a night train. There is a map for our year/model bikes with the SE A/C and SE Shotgun Mufflers. Thats the one you want. Runs well, but will require a dyno run at the dealer to fine tune it and get all the performance out of it. All of it, except for the dyno, can be done by yourself with simple hand tools. I did.

If you plan on doing the SERT (SE Race Tuner) by yourself, I would suggest reading Springer-'s thread on the subject in the EFI Map Forum. Its the top most thread. Good luck...
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hey thanks alot Petrock. There is alot of knowledge here, so I enjoy reading all that I can. The EFI forum has some Smart %[email protected]&'s in there. I just want to make sure that I dont waste money on crap parts, or lose riding time.
 

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What?

Hey Hip1 and Petrock,

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about but maybe that's because I'm on my second FatTire and 1st Jagermiester (starting to get the Friday after work buzz.)
But I like to read these threads and your's caught my eye. I'm sure though, that the only way I can do any self tuning on my EFI Softtail is with my Powercommander. I ran that for about 3 years, changing my maps as I upgraded my equipment. Then I ran into a lean condition that just couldn't be tuned out, and took it off. Went to a shop and had a Stage 1 download (what I needed at the time) and the bike never ran better. I didn't need a dyno to tell. (By the way, Dynojet replaced the Powercommander no charge, but I haven't re-installed it. Read on) Now, I've upgraded to Stage 2, big bore 203 cams along with the SE A/C and V&H big shots left over from the stage 1. Because of the problems with the Powercommander I had the Stage 2 map downloaded from the shop. (By the way, these "Stage" downloads are $150 ea.) The bike runs great, but seems rich, and I may put the Powercommander back on and see what happens. (But I love the power and torque, it is so good!)My point here is even if I re-install the Powercommander and download the appropriate map I think I would need to go to the shop and put the bike on the dyno, to fine tune the EFI with the Powercommander. This costs $300. And, there is no guarantee that this will be any better than the "Stage2" downdload from the shop. There doesn't seem to be a cheap way to correctly tune EFI !! Either you pay, or you PAY. Have it your way, but it takes bucks. Am I wrong about this? I'm ready for another FT and play Legos for awhile......
 

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{pwer Commander

Hey Hip1 and Petrock,

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about but maybe that's because I'm on my second FatTire and 1st Jagermiester (starting to get the Friday after work buzz.)
But I like to read these threads and your's caught my eye. I'm sure though, that the only way I can do any self tuning on my EFI Softtail is with my Powercommander. I ran that for about 3 years, changing my maps as I upgraded my equipment. Then I ran into a lean condition that just couldn't be tuned out, and took it off. Went to a shop and had a Stage 1 download (what I needed at the time) and the bike never ran better. I didn't need a dyno to tell. (By the way, Dynojet replaced the Powercommander no charge, but I haven't re-installed it. Read on) Now, I've upgraded to Stage 2, big bore 203 cams along with the SE A/C and V&H big shots left over from the stage 1. Because of the problems with the Powercommander I had the Stage 2 map downloaded from the shop. (By the way, these "Stage" downloads are $150 ea.) The bike runs great, but seems rich, and I may put the Powercommander back on and see what happens. (But I love the power and torque, it is so good!)My point here is even if I re-install the Powercommander and download the appropriate map I think I would need to go to the shop and put the bike on the dyno, to fine tune the EFI with the Powercommander. This costs $300. And, there is no guarantee that this will be any better than the "Stage2" downdload from the shop. There doesn't seem to be a cheap way to correctly tune EFI !! Either you pay, or you PAY. Have it your way, but it takes bucks. Am I wrong about this? I'm ready for another FT and play Legos for awhile......
If you are changing your exhaust and air cleaner you will need a stage 1 downloaded to your ECU at the dealer.

You can then buy a Power Commander (PC) at discount on eBay. You can install this yourself and download a map from www.powercommander.com

The instructions come with the PC and you should have no trouble installing. The map will change the fuel curve giving you 3 to 7 more hp, cooler running and better mileage. I had the stage 1 done when I got the bike new with V&H bigshot staggered and SE air cleaner.

You do not need a Screamin Eagle Race Tuner (SERT) with the minor changes you are doing. The SERT changes the ECU itself with fuel and timing swings and is much more complicated to tune.

My dealer charges about $100 for a dyno tune with the PC. I have had it dyno tuned twice. Once after upgrade to 95", SE HTCC heads & pistons, WT 2G cams and again after I changed to a Pro Pipe. I built a tuneable baffle for the Pro Pipe and with the PC I added a little fuel at 80 - 100% throttle 4500 to 6200 RPM. I will get it dyno tuned again in the next couple of weeks. 101.7 hp 100.3 Tq

I will change to a SERT this spring and have Nick at Custom Performance tune it. About $250 to $300 for dyno tune with SERT.
 

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The Anti-RUB
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The Stage-1, Stage-2 downloads you can get from the dealer are good, but they are not tuned to your bike. Every bike is different. They are basically a best guess as to what the map should be in most cases. They are in a sense the same maps that come with the SERT, which tend to be a little bit lean. They also can't be tuned. You need a SERT or PC to do that.

With the money you spent on the Stage-1/2 downloads ($150 a pop), you could have bought a SERT, done the download yourself and been done with it saving a bunch of money over time as you do upgrades to the engine etc. The downloads in the SERT are basically the same as the Stage-1/2 downloads.

A SERT isn't that hard to use. I set my bike up with it myself. Took all of 20 minutes (most of the time was spent dragging an old PC down to the garage and setting it up). The actual time to do the download etc was only a couple minutes.

Either way you go, you should get the bike dyno'd to fine tune the map on your bike to your specific setup. Especially if you do any major motor changes, like you have. No, dyno's aren't cheap, but neither is your bike. Don't you want it running at its best performance so it lasts as long as possible etc. You only need to dyno the bike when you do a mod to the engine. So do them all at once and have it dyno'd and be done with it.

Btw, carb bikes are alot more expensive to maintain/tune. They need, practically, constant adjustment to run correctly. Even after being rejetted and dyno'd. Changes in weather and altitude will vastly effect a carb bike, while an EFI bike will just adapt on the fly.
 

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I think you're right, Petrock

the best way to go is the SERT. I just can't seem to get around the cost though. I was at the dealer today and they quoted me $450 for the SERT and 90 bucks to do the initial install. I think I could do it myself like you say, but you know it is just hard to imagine we're even talking about hundreds of dollars for intake tuning; this just wasn't possible not too long ago. Like you mention, my carb bike always needed upkeep, but I never seemed to mind rebuilding the Linkert, it was free and lasted a season or two or until the gas crusted up in it. Can you dig it? We're in a new world here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
When I do the pipes, I will most likely do the folowing...
1. Vance and Hines Pro Pipe
2. K&N High performance air cleaner
3. S.E. Race tuner (god hope I can get a deal somewhere)
Do all the install, and upload new map to my 2006 softail standard (stock map). Ride it for a while. Then take it up to the HD dealer that is scheduled to open in Augest (2 Miles away). But to tell you the truth...If it runs like a dream, It's gonna be hard to justify 100-200$ on 3HP.
 

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The Anti-RUB
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the best way to go is the SERT. I just can't seem to get around the cost though. I was at the dealer today and they quoted me $450 for the SERT and 90 bucks to do the initial install.
Check out http://www.zanottimotor.com/, enter the part # for the SERT for your bike... Runs around $380. The $90 install charge is a rip off. Takes a total of 5 minutes to do, and that includes drinking a victory beer. Just do it yourself. Of course read the instructions/manual first so you understand whats going on. I'm a computer guy by trade and a mechanic by hobby, so I kinda skimmed it. If your not to handy with the 1's and 0's, I'd read and re-read the manual until you understand... There is also a REALLY good thread in the EFI/SERT forum on what a SERT is and does etc. Check it out.

Like you mention, my carb bike always needed upkeep, but I never seemed to mind rebuilding the Linkert, it was free and lasted a season or two or until the gas crusted up in it. Can you dig it? We're in a new world here.
Yeah, but not many people know how to tune a carb right. So most had to pay... With an EFI, you tune/dyno it once, you've done it right, and your done for life... or until you do your next engine mod. In the long run its actually cheaper then a Carb.
 

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The SERT is a more precise tuning and requires time, money a dyno and knowledge.
The ECU updates and EFI Pro Fueler combination is cheaper, easer, faster, less anal-retentive way to perform a tune.

The EFI Pro Fueler is more similar to putting a bigger jet to a carb (with 3 RPM ranges to tune in this case) and sticking to it, rather than have a 'so-called' perfect tune which will loose it's perfection as soon as some external parameters change anyways..

Agreed, the SERT is the ultimate way, but it doesn't mean is it the only way to go.

My 95" Stage II 2001 Deuce beats my buddy's 103" 2001 CVO SE Road King.. go figure.
 

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The Anti-RUB
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emxgarcia said:
rather than have a 'so-called' perfect tune which will loose it's perfection as soon as some external parameters change anyways.
Thats not entirely true. The ECM will adapt to the changing outside conditions, like altitude, temperature, moisture. Granted its not perfect, but the same problem effects the fueler as well, because its all up to the ECM to do the adapting.

emxgarcia said:
My 95" Stage II 2001 Deuce beats my buddy's 103" 2003 CVO SE Road King.. go figure.
This doesn't surprise me. Any bike coming out of the factory is not going to be tuned to perform at its peak. HD has to limit the bikes to conform to national/state emissions and noise laws (to name a few). So the CVO bikes are basically handycapped until they are slightly modified (i.e. better pipes, gearing and an EFI map). If you come up on a CVO bike, or another 103" bike, that has been setup properly, I'm sorry, but your bike would get smoked. Granted, a big part of a race is the rider/driver...
 

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That is why I said some parameters... not any parameters. What I just want to remind everyone that a perfect tune is not completely so... we will ALL be affected by some other variables... my point is don't sweat the detail...some people go ape about the SERT.. and have one setup for a mountain ride and another for the highway ride.. geez.. i just wanna ride.
 

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The Anti-RUB
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emxgarcia said:
one setup for a mountain ride and another for the highway ride.
Then those people don't know how an EFI works. All you need is one map and your done. The EFI adapts to different altitudes. Carb bikes, on the otherhand, do need to be tuned for different altitudes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I first want to thank all for your input...But I would love to here from someone who has done the following,
1. V&H Pipes
2. Better air breather(cleaner)
3. Fuelpak with stock map
Now before some of you bite my head off, I just want to know if anyone is having success with this combo. I know you cant fine tune it. But I dont know if you have to. I know if I do more mods, I have to go SERT or Power Comander. But One step at a time right.
Like I said before... I'm gonna go with the PC, or SERT. But for Sh.. and grins let me know.
 

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I have V&H Big Radius, Ness Big Sucker and PCIII. I have used PCIII's on my last few bikes and install quite a few at the shop I work at. Most of the time the maps provided by Dynojet work very well, I rarely have problems. It's very easy to install and upload maps to. By the way the Ness Big Sucker comes with a K&N filter and a nice breather setup, I highly recommend it.
 

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The Anti-RUB
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If you do some searches on this forum, the consensus on the FuelPak is that is crap. For the money, you could get a SERT or PC and not waist your time/money.
 

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1HIP said:
I first want to thank all for your input...But I would love to here from someone who has done the following,
1. V&H Pipes
2. Better air breather(cleaner)
3. Fuelpak with stock map
Now before some of you bite my head off, I just want to know if anyone is having success with this combo. I know you cant fine tune it. But I dont know if you have to. I know if I do more mods, I have to go SERT or Power Comander. But One step at a time right.
Like I said before... I'm gonna go with the PC, or SERT. But for Sh.. and grins let me know.
These were my first steps:
Screamin' Eagle EFI Stage I Air Cleaner Kit
Screamin' Eagle EFI Pro Race Fueler
V&H Short SHots
then a year later the SE203 cams
then a year later the 95" Kit

The EFI Pro Fueler is easy, seat of the pant (check plug look) adjustement.
 
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