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Discussion Starter #1
Let's start by saying;

#1. If you can afford it, the US has the best health care "available".

#2. If you have a median income job and can afford some of it the US has "available" some good health care.

#3. If you have no job and are on the government dole you can get most of the best health care "available."

#4. If you can't afford it any of it, can afford some of it, or have run out of money trying to pay for it, all the best health care "available", is useless to you.

So faced with soaring deficits, a multi-front war, and rotting manufacturing base, the nation is set to embark on a bold new initiative: Universal health care, otherwise known as Medicaid for everyone.

Each of the dems has laid out their plan, I think Hillary is in trouble for hers, but in general they are long on promises and short on numbers, not uncommon in a campaign.

The pubs are for the most part laying low and watching where the dems go on this one with the exception of Romney who wants to take "credit" for Massachusset's program which he didn't even support when he was governor there. However if the unemployment rate goes up another tick in that state, he'll flip flop on that policy in a heart beat (IMO).

Basically the plan has nothing to do with #1 and #3 above. They are already well covered. The plan is to essentially bleed #2 enough to cover #4. You may believe that you can bleed #1 too, but that isn't likely because there just aren't enough around. It takes numbers.

*Disclaimer: I currently have health insurance which I pay for out of my pocket, I'm self-employed and don't have any employer to pay it. As an employer I provide it to my employees, but it is expensive and as a small business I can't carry it at no cost to them. I also have been in a position at times where I had #A: no insurance at all, which is a very difficult one to be in when you have a family. And #B: had insurance but not enough to cover all the costs necessary and had the doctors and hospitals bleed me for all I was worth. I am about to head into #B situation again...my insurance covers some of what I will need it to, but I am going to be handed some substantial bills....

That having been said, I don't expect you to take care of me or my family. I don't consider it the goverment's job to pay for my medicine, or the doctor's job to work for free (or even less than he can get from someone else for doing the same procedure).

It's a difficult issue, and people's lives are at stake. What do you think?
 

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EASY DOES IT
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I think this was all known a long time ago and has been hashed out many times on this forum, to further argue is to only incite further devisiveness (not like pointing this will will have any effect either)...the problem I have is that you're gonna get what you get regardless of what we the public want....
 

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Election issue

Like abortion, flag burning, immigration and a few other issues health care is a great election issue. Once the election is over the issues seem to fall into the archives until next election cycle.
 

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DJW said:
The pubs are for the most part laying low and watching where the dems go on this one with the exception of Romney who wants to take "credit" for Massachusset's program which he didn't even support when he was governor there. However if the unemployment rate goes up another tick in that state, he'll flip flop on that policy in a heart beat (IMO).
Not quite so sure there is anything worth taking credit for at this point! They're basically making it compulsory for you (as in all Massachusetts residents) to have insurance, regardless of your ability to pay for it. I think they plan on penalizing those who don't on their income tax filings.

Of course, if you're on the welfare, you're covered and don't have to worry about the penalty.

If you have a job, you should have health insurance. If your employer doesn't offer it, they can be fined, but the fine is based on the number of employees and may be cheaper than providing insurance.

So, Joe Taxpayer, who has already contributed highly in taxes, and more than likely in insurance contributions, will probably be hit again.

And what about the municipal governments inability to continue to provide health insurance to it's retiree's (whom were guaranteed in union contracts) and it's current employees? They can't keep raising real estate taxes just to cover their previous promices. The real-estate paying public will not stand for continuoly rising tax rates. Where will it end? Will the current healthcare industry fall on it's face because it priced itself out of the market? And I'm not blaming it on them either. Insurance rates go up because they pay high losses due to lawsuits. Insurance goes up and everything tied into needs to cover their costs as well.

I work in healthcare and I too need a raise!

Off my soapbox, sorry I found this thread!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
fourhour said:
Off my soapbox, sorry I found this thread!
I'm glad you did, I'd like some more input from your area since it is often cited as the example of how it is supposed to work.
 

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socialized medicine = the beginning of the end. It will only work for big brother. Don't believe what you hear nurse Kratchet saying, she's the =devil= .
 

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It is much ado about nothing. This is one of the issues that never will settled, just like prayer in schools, teaching evilution, aboration, etc. How many more terms are canidates going to get milage out of issues that will never pass the house.
 

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What happens if poor people catch contagious diseases and can't afford health care? Do we just watch them die? :ntlgh:

Oh wait, never mind. I live in a middle class neighborhood and I won't have to see them suffer.
 

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The OTHER White Meat.
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Smokey said:
What happens if poor people catch contagious diseases and can't afford health care? Do we just watch them die? :ntlgh:

Oh wait, never mind. I live in a middle class neighborhood and I won't have to see them suffer.
They will not be denied care anywhere in the U.S. right now.





Why does anyone have to read Hilly's "new" plan? (Turns out she didn't even put together the first one...Bill did. Another lie?) Socialized Medicine does not work, and the only thing you need to determine this is logic and reason....thusly.

1. Will gov't healthcare be able to provide any desired care to every person who desired it in perpetuity? No. It is economically impossible to do such a thing.

2. This means that somewhere, at some level, gov't will be deciding who gets what care. There is no way to guarantee this cutoff point will remain fixed. A simple word for this is rationing.

3. Rationed healthcare means that at some time, somewhere, someone will not get the healthcare they desire/need.

4. Which puts the lie to the original promise of Universal Healthcare.

It cannot happen. It cannot work. Period.

And lets not forget that along with the creation of Universal Healthcare comes the destruction of the current system, which despite it's faults is still the best in the world.
 

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are you that foolish

duhast said:
Why does anyone have to read Hilly's "new" plan? (Turns out she didn't even put together the first one...Bill did. Another lie?) ..................

Who is foolish enough to believe any of these politicians come up with these plans. Most have not had an original idea since they entered office. They are to affraid how their voter might react if they took a position on anything.

Every one of our Washington crew has interns, staff, speech writers and consultants who provide the honorable official with their official positions on everything.

Next you'll be believing Dybya spent hours doing nothing but working on who he would select to replace Gonzales.
 

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The OTHER White Meat.
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toybox99615 said:
Who is foolish enough to believe any of these politicians come up with these plans. Most have not had an original idea since they entered office. They are to affraid how their voter might react if they took a position on anything.

Every one of our Washington crew has interns, staff, speech writers and consultants who provide the honorable official with their official positions on everything.

Next you'll be believing Dybya spent hours doing nothing but working on who he would select to replace Gonzales.

Except that was part of the sales pitch "Hillary's healthcare plan. She's the smartest woman in the world, it must be good!" It was the official line that it was hers.
 

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Pestilence
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Clicky here for a comparison of two different systems used by two highly industrialized countries. Be prepared for a long but "matter of fact" read (with many links)

"Cannot happen" and "cannot work" are uninformed comments.
Hugely complex topic.
 

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The OTHER White Meat.
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I don't have to read more than this:
The Canadian government has outlawed private medical care for services covered by the public health plan.
to state catagorically that it is a crap statist bullsh!t system. Keep any sort of collectivist garbage you want, I want no part of it in my country. That statement alone shows the system to be anti-liberty and anti-capitalist.

Tell me, what recourse do you have when The System tells you "Sorry, we can do nothing for you. Go home and die."? Oh...I know, you Canuks come here for healing.

Absolute idiocy.:thumbsdn:
 

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Pestilence
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duhast said:
I don't have to read more than this:
to state catagorically that it is a crap statist bullsh!t system. Keep any sort of collectivist garbage you want, I want no part of it in my country. That statement alone shows the system to be anti-liberty and anti-capitalist.

Tell me, what recourse do you have when The System tells you "Sorry, we can do nothing for you. Go home and die."? Oh...I know, you Canuks come here for healing.

Absolute idiocy.:thumbsdn:

That's too bad...

I think you may have mis-taken this as some sort of chest thumping from up North.
You're dead wrong.
Here's a great resource, free of political influence giving facts on both systems strengths and weaknesses and all you come up with is: "I don't have to read more than this"?
 

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I say we should all eat nuts, fruits, green vegies and beans, and broiled fish. then we wouldn't need health care.
 

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The OTHER White Meat.
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Flyer said:
That's too bad...

I think you may have mis-taken this as some sort of chest thumping from up North.
You're dead wrong.
Here's a great resource, free of political influence giving facts on both systems strengths and weaknesses and all you come up with is: "I don't have to read more than this"?

Are you denying this? It is from the article you recommended.
The Canadian government has outlawed private medical care for services covered by the public health plan.

And Wiki (in general) "free of political influence"? Please.
 

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Pestilence
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duhast said:
Are you denying this? It is from the article you recommended.
Yes.
The Canadian system has been 69-75% publicly funded,[24] though a substantial portion of services are provided by private corporations, namely the privately incorporated medical practices of most physicians (however, despite the fact that many doctors will refer to their "private clinics", these are in fact merely private corporations that derive nearly all their revenue through government billings). Although some doctors work on a purely fee-for-service basis (usually family physicians), some family physicians and most specialists are paid through a combination of fee-for-service and fixed contracts with hospitals or health service management organizations.



And Wiki (in general) "free of political influence"? Please.
Much more so than CNN\NBC\CBC and the major parties at the federal and state\provincial level.
Information is only as good as what you do with it.
 

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The OTHER White Meat.
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Flyer said:
Much more so than CNN\NBC\CBC and the major parties at the federal and state\provincial level.
Information is only as good as what you do with it.

Then your Wiki source is worthless, isn't it?
 

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The OTHER White Meat.
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Flyer said:
Much more so than CNN\NBC\CBC and the major parties at the federal and state\provincial level.
Information is only as good as what you do with it.

Then your Wiki source is worthless, isn't it?


BTW, I use none of the sources you mention.
 
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