V-Twin Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Well with all the talk on cams and rpm, and torque and all that I thought I would post this for you.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze528y6/05roadglide/RPMTIME.doc

As all of the people on here that are in the industry will tell you, you have to know what you want or what your "riding" style is before you can commence on a build.

This is what my log shows. Note that the idle cell is so high because I have spent a lot of time messing with my IAC settings and viewing live data, and I just plain warm my bike up EVERY time I go on it. You can see where I spend my time riding. And as I ride more on the cam the more I am moving up in RPM riding, me adapting to the cam a little better I suppose.

I just would ask how one would know what their riding style is without one of these logging devices. I would think that you need to put a lot of effort into tracking and consciously check where you are at in rpms for documentation.

I see this as the biggest issue for people trying to make up their minds on cam choice. You need to spend a lot of time considering your riding habits before you pull the trigger. As I said before the cam is what you are building around and understanding the character of each cam will make you smile, or not.
 

·
Restless
Joined
·
1,672 Posts
Max RPM was 6800? Holy crap!!:yikes:

Hmmm. Can you relate that to possibly floating a valve, bending your pushrod, and busting the rocker plate etc the last time?
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
timbo said:
Max RPM was 6800? Holy crap!!:yikes:

Hmmm. Can you relate that to possibly floating a valve, bending your pushrod, and busting the rocker plate etc the last time?
Nahhhh, I was doing 60 miles an hour 2300 rpm.

Got no valve damage, the push rods were bent because the rocker support plate let go. Not really afraid of hitting 6800 rpms on it at all. I touch that 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd all the time. The total time of 4 seconds is for the entire time the unite is running. so in all the hours 4.some seconds I have exceeded the 6800 rpms.

Nope if anything I may have fatigued the support plate to contribute to the disaster I had but I don't think those brief stops at 6800 rpms did the damage that happened to me. Take your pick, support plate, push rods, lifter, I think if you read the report from the metallurgist I sent it to, and his findings, it was that master of torque, the dominator of support plates, Bob Woods very own TW6HG that just "ate er up"
 

·
Restless
Joined
·
1,672 Posts
I see. Didn't you get the forged rocker supports this time? And, you did keep the TW6HG didn't you?

Better luck with it this time. I'll bet your Glide screams with that cam. Just wait till' you get the 3.37 gearing in there! Ohhhh man!
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Did not use forged supports this time. As it was the front head that was afflicted I was lazy and used a stock plate. I did not want to go into that rear again but I am reconsidering it for the Spring Season. I just wanted to repair it to ride what I can this winter here in PA. Last 3 weeks sucked, last couple of days we had some 50's and then rain, and 40's now so I can ride.

The TW6HG will stay for now. It is a fun cam for sure, however sage advice here from a rookie, it is a torque monster with all the scary that come with it, it can be destructive, but that can be overcome. It has its tunning issues. No two ways about it it is NOISY. And its associated valve train requirements add to that noise. BUT man it has pulled my RG and me to some awesome MPH (119) in some very short times and I still grin big time when I ride it.

I cant wait to see the 3.37 in it. I am not the only one who complains on a bagger that 5th gear is too tall for my cam. At 70 at 2500 rpms I must down shift to get back into my cams sweet spot to get her to giddy up and go, I hope the higher cruising rpm is what the "doc" ordered to alleviate this shift.
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
SEDELUXE05 said:
laf im going to go to 98in in january wrench told me to go with the tw5g i really like the 6hg how much tq loss would there be between the 2 cams.
Not qualified to answer that but I am sure someone will be along to let ya know.

If you are talking with HDWRENCH then whatever he said, I would take and be done with it.

IF you described your riding habits as they actually are and what your goals are I would think HDWRENCH has done enough 98's by now, that he knows what works.

Have fun on that 98", I hear 9.8, 37G's, and a good port will get you a VERY smooth, quiet, reliable build using stock valve train components. Not having to buy roller rockers, adjustable push rods and covers, and probably lifters, the cost of having you old cylinders bored and honed CORRECTLY, and new pistons, does offset the cost of the 98" barrels and pistons very nicely and is an attractive option now.
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
SEDELUXE05 said:
i was not questioning wrenchs expertise by all means i already have the 6hg.
his recomendations were to use the 5g and i know are solid. im still going with the roller rockers no matter what cam i choose. im just fishing here you know your right if wrench said it im just going to go with his advice. ill just give him a call i have one more question i have to ask him then ill be ripping it apart. thanks for listening to me and reinforcing what i already know i needed that. :thanks:
Hey no worries:yes:

I did not think you were questioning HDWRENCH, sorry my typing style is sometimes too blunt for the Internet and is easily misinterpreted.

I just know the time all these builders from this forum, spend with the customers from this forum, and time and time again I have seen them second guessed, people sway from the build, and then they are unhappy.

OR, as the intent of my original post people do not pay enough time and attention where they are riding at, jump on a build, and did not like it because of this or that, but more then likely because they did not match a build to where they REALLY ride.
 

·
Restless
Joined
·
1,672 Posts
SEDELUXE05 said:
i was not questioning wrenchs expertise by all means i already have the 6hg.
his recomendations were to use the 5g and i know are solid. im still going with the roller rockers no matter what cam i choose. im just fishing here you know your right if wrench said it im just going to go with his advice. ill just give him a call i have one more question i have to ask him then ill be ripping it apart. thanks for listening to me and reinforcing what i already know i needed that. :thanks:
I can tell you that when my cam tensioners were going south and I was looking to go to gear drive HDWRENCH took inventory of what I already had and put together a gear drive package for me. I already had the HD 95" kit with flat tops and the SE Performance heads. He suggested the Woods TW5-G cam because Bob Woods pretty much designed it to work perfectly with my 95" and SE Performance heads. The TW5-G and the SE 251 chain driven cams I was running at that time are fairly close in lift, but different in the duration dept. Going to the TW5-G I definitely gained more torque in the lower rpms for sure. Plus the bikes performance didn't even flinch after changing the cams. I thought I may have to get the Race Tuner redialed. But I guess I lucked up because the thing just hauls azz without coughing, hesitating or bogging. Never a pop on decel either. Plugs look perfect. Runs like a champ. And depending on my wrist I get anywhere from 38-42mpg.

I did however add roller rockers, comp lifters and Smith Bros Racing alloy pushrods while I was at it. When the dealer did my 95" and 251 cams they should have suggested and installed roller rockers with such a high lift cam but they didn't. I could see how over time that if I hadn't made the switch how I could end up with some accelerated valve stem wear. I sure am glad I did these last mods myself.

I would definitely recommend the Woods TW5-G.
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Have fun on your build and from the mouth of babes, Timbo, you have affirmation.

Isn't the Internet cool?

I have the 6's and they are all I know first hand. I have ridden other Twins with other cams, but never for enough time to compare.

I wanted Sportster go, from a Road Glide Touring bike :roflback:

Well I am not sure, but with a better rider, it would be close :gun:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
460 Posts
LAF said:
Did not use forged supports this time. As it was the front head that was afflicted I was lazy and used a stock plate. I did not want to go into that rear again but I am reconsidering it for the Spring Season. I just wanted to repair it to ride what I can this winter here in PA. Last 3 weeks sucked, last couple of days we had some 50's and then rain, and 40's now so I can ride.

The TW6HG will stay for now. It is a fun cam for sure, however sage advice here from a rookie, it is a torque monster with all the scary that come with it, it can be destructive, but that can be overcome. It has its tunning issues. No two ways about it it is NOISY. And its associated valve train requirements add to that noise. BUT man it has pulled my RG and me to some awesome MPH (119) in some very short times and I still grin big time when I ride it.

I cant wait to see the 3.37 in it. I am not the only one who complains on a bagger that 5th gear is too tall for my cam. At 70 at 2500 rpms I must down shift to get back into my cams sweet spot to get her to giddy up and go, I hope the higher cruising rpm is what the "doc" ordered to alleviate this shift.
LAF,

I'm a little puzzled by your 70 mph at 2500 rpms. I'm assuming you are running stock 25/36 primary and 32/70 secondary gearing. Assuming you have a 25 1/4 dia rear tire you should be turning around 2935 rpm at 70 mph in 5th. I believe 2500 rpm would be around 60 mph. In another post to this thread, you state 60 mph at 2300 rpm! 2300 rpm in 5th should be in 51-52 mph range. Do you have a tach?

With the change to 24/37 primary gearing your 60 mph rpm should jump up to 2693 and your 70 mph rpm to 3142.

Have you had the build dyno'ed? Would be interesting to be able to see a copy of of graph if you have. Not being a supporting member attachment can't be viewed. I would love to see what happing in the 2000 - 3200 rpm range. You may just have an exhaust induced condition that even with 3.37 gearing bike will still feel sluggish. Would be nice to see if your TW6H cams make peak HP around 5800 rpms like most or if there is a benefit to your reving the engine to 6800 rpm which is around 1000 rpm above where the TW6H cams usually make peak power at.
 

·
07', 04', 03', & 02
Joined
·
1,099 Posts
LAF,

That is exactly how my RPM log looks from the DTTC TCFI II w/Wego.

99% of the hours are spent between 2000 - 4000 rpm's; with 3500 - 4000 accounting for only 2%.

Lesson here is to pick the right cam for where you will use it most.
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
bedemonster said:
LAF,

That is exactly how my RPM log looks from the DTTC TCFI II w/Wego.

99% of the hours are spent between 2000 - 4000 rpm's; with 3500 - 4000 accounting for only 2%.

Lesson here is to pick the right cam for where you will use it most.
Thank you for seeing the point.:wavey:
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
turbotc said:
LAF,

I'm a little puzzled by your 70 mph at 2500 rpms. I'm assuming you are running stock 25/36 primary and 32/70 secondary gearing. Assuming you have a 25 1/4 dia rear tire you should be turning around 2935 rpm at 70 mph in 5th. I believe 2500 rpm would be around 60 mph. In another post to this thread, you state 60 mph at 2300 rpm! 2300 rpm in 5th should be in 51-52 mph range. Do you have a tach?

With the change to 24/37 primary gearing your 60 mph rpm should jump up to 2693 and your 70 mph rpm to 3142.

Have you had the build dyno'ed? Would be interesting to be able to see a copy of of graph if you have. Not being a supporting member attachment can't be viewed. I would love to see what happing in the 2000 - 3200 rpm range. You may just have an exhaust induced condition that even with 3.37 gearing bike will still feel sluggish. Would be nice to see if your TW6H cams make peak HP around 5800 rpms like most or if there is a benefit to your reving the engine to 6800 rpm which is around 1000 rpm above where the TW6H cams usually make peak power at.
I am not a tach watcher so if math says what I should be doing in 5th gear, at 70 mph is xxxx rpms then that is what it must be, but is that uphill or downhill, head wind, tail wind, under/over inflated tires,:yawn:

I say those numbers as a guess or what I remember what I saw when I glanced last. I will look but I am sure at 70 I am doing like 2500-2700 PRM's.

I never mentioned the word sluggish, that is the LAST word I would use to describe it.

On the 6800 rpm run it is by accident in my first to second gear shift, and depending, second to third shift. And it just captured the last red line of the data log, it could have happened 5 miles or 5000 miles ago. That is 4.85 seconds of 256.88 hours operated, is the amount of time I have been at the rev limiter, now I had it at 62,64,and now at 68 so that is me touching those numbers since the TCFI was installed. I DO NOT feed it a diet of rev limiter, but I don't lug it either.

On the power band of the TW6, well lets just say it takes a better man then me to find it in 5th, and the first four gears can outrun the 6800 limiter, and I guarantee the cams are making torque to those shift points.

I had a dreadful dyno when the TCFI and I were having issues, but that seems to be cleared up now. I was hitting 11.0 AFR on WOT and it was just ugly. I will see if I can find it though.

Overall I am VERY pleased with the TW6HG. It is all of what is said about it and more, good and bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
460 Posts
LAF said:
I am not a tach watcher so if math says what I should be doing in 5th gear, at 70 mph is xxxx rpms then that is what it must be, but is that uphill or downhill, head wind, tail wind, under/over inflated tires,:yawn:

I say those numbers as a guess or what I remember what I saw when I glanced last. I will look but I am sure at 70 I am doing like 2500-2700 PRM's.

On the power band of the TW6, well lets just say it takes a better man then me to find it in 5th, and the first four gears can outrun the 6800 limiter, and I guarantee the cams are making torque to those shift points.

I had a dreadful dyno when the TCFI and I were having issues, but that seems to be cleared up now. I was hitting 11.0 AFR on WOT and it was just ugly. I will see if I can find it though.
:yawn: RPM will change some depending on tire inflation over or under. I would guess you check it regular and maintain it to mfg reccomedation.

Stock Dunlop your bike came with has a dia of 25.70 so your actual rpms should be around 2800 at 70 mph instead of what I first quoted. :yawn:

:yawn: On the TW6H power band at 6800, :whatever: 5th gear top speed should be less than 4th gear's. Takes a hell of an engine to pull your red line in 5th on street/highway. Just not enough mechanial advantage to overcome all the resistance. :xhere:

No need to hunt the graph if it's not recent to the way the bike is running now, it will be meaningless as to whatever makes your engine not want to pull that good at 70 mph.
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
All points taken.

I am not fussing over me being off on a guesstimate of 1-200 rpms.

The theoretical rpm point means nothing to me. Too many things to affect it for me to debate it.

I have Metzler's on does that affect it? Bottom line for me 5th gear and I don't get along well. I want 3.37 gearing and it should be here today.

I am not alone on this fifth gear issue and feel I am not finding anything new under the sun. Many before me and many after will do this mod.

On the rev limiter thing if I set my rev limiter to 5500 I feel confident I can hit it in fifth gear.

It is not that my bike does not pull at 70, I just would like more rpms there for it to be in a little higher rpm band when I roll on it.

I do understand what you are saying but sometimes the "math" does not equal the equation.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
338 Posts

·
07', 04', 03', & 02
Joined
·
1,099 Posts
dcfatboy said:
Ahhh. But if the cam dictates where we ride most? My dyno chart is here:

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=629079&highlight=dyno#post629079

I seem to want to shift around 3500 rpm, and cruise around 3000 rpm. Could this be influenced by what my chart says?
Your cam is not hitting it's pb until 3300 which seems about 700 too high from when the 203 should theoretically kick in at 2500-2600. I would be trying to get rid of that big dip from 2200 to 3300. The graph looks typical of straight pipes; is that what you were running?? Something is amiss, when fixed you will be much happier with the performance. Especially at your 3000 cruise.:yes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
460 Posts
LAF,

If you are have a Met 140 x 16 on your bike it will drop the rpms. Stock Dunlop is 25.70" dia and a Met 140 is a 26.18" dia.

As far as 3.37 gearing goes I installed it on my softail back in 2000 and still run it. On my other bike, I just converted from a 3.37 belt drive to a 28/37 primary and 23/51 secondary so I have a 3.37 5th gear ratio and 2.93 6th gear ratio with 124" that's being installed now. I'f you should try to do the 5th gear ratio math, it's a 1.15 to 1 ratio instead of 1 to 1.

I've ran a TW6H build for 34,000+ miles and so far so good. No problems even when I made the msitake of down shifting to 2nd instead of up shifting to 4th at 5500 rpms. That was not fun...LOL It will pull in 5th from 2500 rpms with no problem and would probably pull from 2000 rpms if I was crazy enough to try that one too. Rather roll on hard from 3000 rpm. Best thing I have going is my TQ curve rises from 2000 rpm up. That's due to the exhaust. No dip. Got to love that old WB E pipe I bought back in 2000...LOL

Good luck an I know you will like the 3.37 gearing. Hell I love it on a bone stock bike.:thumbsup:
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
turbotc I am looking forward to the gearing.

Again it is probably just my riding style, my bike/combo, but my cam will pull nicely from 2500 rpms, it is just more fun at 2900, and at 3300 or so it is just cazy amounts of fun:clap:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
338 Posts
bedemonster said:
Your cam is not hitting it's pb until 3300 which seems about 700 too high from when the 203 should theoretically kick in at 2500-2600. I would be trying to get rid of that big dip from 2200 to 3300. The graph looks typical of straight pipes; is that what you were running?? Something is amiss, when fixed you will be much happier with the performance. Especially at your 3000 cruise.:yes:
I would love to get rid of that saddle!! That is my number 1 priority!! Any suggestions?

The pipe are Python 3 full exhaust (not Dual Staggereds). They are Drag Specialties DS-210431. I do not think they are not supposed to be straight pipes.

P.S. What is pb?
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top