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Discussion Starter #1
Well this started out with a overheating problem and progressed into a what I thought was rings but the consensus seemed to be not scavaging oil from the block. Got my new Feuling pump the other day and tore out the old one. Low and behold I notice the cams aren't turning freely as they should. Seems at one point the bearings worked there way out and bent the keeper out far enough to rub the lobe on one cam. There was evidence of heat on the keeper. The bearings were back where they belonged when I got there. Evidence of bearing spining slightly on keeper but the cam plate looked good. Its a delkron cam plate. The bearings feel fine. How the hell can this happen? Can the cam set back into the inner bearing far enough for the outer bearing to move towards the crank? Anyone ever hear of such a thing? Suggestions? Everything seems OK but I can't bring myself to just reassemble it.
 

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i have seen cam walk in over heat situattions i have also had problems with oill control with the delkron cam plates in the past
 

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Otto said:
i have seen cam walk in over heat situattions i have also had problems with oill control with the delkron cam plates in the past
Otto could you explain the oil control issues you have experienced with the Delkron plate a little more.
 

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sticky bypass plungers is the most common which give inconsitant oil pressure also have had problems with Bearings spin & Walking the heat expansion of the billet plate cause some shifting of oil hole locations. I have found that they need to be fully debured inside at drillings and check the plunger bore carfully for burrs polishing the plunger to undersize helps and check the plunger to make sure the champher is not overly wide as it can wedge into the hole at base or worse not seal do to inconsistent centering of holes and it will need to be polished down OD to slide freely. use S&S'S retainer plate helps the bearing situation i use it on every build went back to using stock cam plates even in the race bike
 

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Mark, when I put my 116 together, I used the stock cam support plate, the S&S bearing retainer plate and a couple of drops of red Loctite on the outer surface of the bearings (just to be safe). So far so good (15 000 mi). Depending on the interference fit between your bearings and the support plate, you might be able to do the same.
 

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haven't seen any major damage but the ones that have had these issues have been gone over with a fine tooth comb to make sure. generally i replace the cam bearings because i have to disassemble any ways
 

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Thanks Otto. Reason I ask is recently had engine rebuilt and when I increase rpm's oil pressure drops, when I let off the throttle a bit it goes back up. When cruising at a steady speed gauge shows good consistent pressure. Engine is quiet. Have about 4000mi on it. Weird. Also installed new sending unit, still does it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well, got the new fueling oil pump in this evening, buttoned everything up, checked oil, fired it up. Oil pressure goes up to 55ish, let it warm up and off I go. Bike feels sluggish, but I am not hitting it hard. After it starts to warm up which it does VERY quickly I whack it a couple times. Runs like ****. Temp goes to 225 in a heart beat, hotter, quicker than before. Get home pull dip stick 1 qt. low. What a piece of crap. I've about had it. Anybody want to buy a 116" amish glide?
 

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MarkCrain said:
Well, got the new fueling oil pump in this evening, buttoned everything up, checked oil, fired it up. Oil pressure goes up to 55ish, let it warm up and off I go. Bike feels sluggish, but I am not hitting it hard. After it starts to warm up which it does VERY quickly I whack it a couple times. Runs like ****. Temp goes to 225 in a heart beat, hotter, quicker than before. Get home pull dip stick 1 qt. low. What a piece of crap. I've about had it. Anybody want to buy a 116" amish glide?
Reminds me of sumping. Oil accumulates in the crank case reducing the circulating volume of oil. That reduced amount of oil heats up quicker while the crank is acting like a butter churn. Power loss and rapid oil temperature increase coupled with inconsistent oil level spells trouble.
I would disassemble the pump, check all O-rings (size and position) and pump position. Looks like a scavenging problem.
Oh I'll take the crappy Amish glide from your hands for a few bucks + shipping and store her in my barn.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Its apart again and sumping IS the problem. Had 2" of oil in the cam case. Thought the new fueling pump would be the cure but obviously its not. Any ideas what else might cause that? If I ever get this thing fixed and up to Doc to tune it might turn out to be a fun bike to own. MIGHT!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Another question, when I crank it with cam cover off its huffing mist out the bottom behind the carrier. Is this normal?
 

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If it is sumping, how are you aligning the oil pump. I had the evo tappet alignment pins, i rotated the rear wheel continually while Dynatherapy installed the alignment pins in the called for holes not sure but 2 and 4 I think, I continued to turn as he hand tightened the pins and then as he hand tightened the bolts and initial torque, he removed the pins and as he started the bolts I spun again until he got to first torque setting, I then got a break as he then set the final torque, in the final pattern, and all is well.

I was warned against the delkron cam plate and will keep my distance now for sure after reading this thread. Never thought of the expansion rates of billet verses pot metal but that would seem to be an issue for sure.

I wonder if the stock cam plate, new install kit, I think one of them comes with the S&S retainer, and an oil pump alignment would do it? As always the baisley spring while you are there.

I know you will want to replace all bearings if there is even a question of heat or bluing showing and it is VERY cheap insurance.

Of course the normal o-ring check on oil pump and the other miscellaneous ones that are on the cam plate are a source of sumping too.

Hope you get it squared away :beer4u:
 

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MarkCrain said:
Another question, when I crank it with cam cover off its huffing mist out the bottom behind the carrier. Is this normal?
Mark:
What do you mean with 'carrier'? If you refer to the main bearing, one would think that some pressure builds through the motion of the pistons and would be released through the crank vent system. If you feel significant air flow through the main bearing that would point to a venting problem in the crank case and needs further investigation. Not sure that there is a link between scavenging and venting, but make sure the vents are OK. By the way, is this a full S&S engine or a HD conversion?

Edit: I would go the route LAF suggested and start with a stock pump/cam plate etc. as a reference point. My bike developed the same behavior caused by a failing scavenging gear set of the pump. No power, very hot very quickly, ran like cr$p.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
HD conversion, not smart enough to just up and buy the S&S Motor. The venting comes from behind the cam plate but cant tell where behind there as my x-ray vison won't work on Sundays. THis thing is killing me. I just removed the cams .... again .... and checked the blocks oil passages, all OK.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
What is the concensus on oil coolers location. Feed or return. Mine is on return which had a passage that does not have an o ring between the cam carrier\plate and engine block. Maybe dumping there?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Almost forgot, I align the pump buy installing plate leaving pump barly snugged and rotate the engine a few times then tighten.
 

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MarkCrain said:
What is the concensus on oil coolers location. Feed or return. Mine is on return which had a passage that does not have an o ring between the cam carrier\plate and engine block. Maybe dumping there?
I would go back to the basics, short cut the oil cooler, bring everything in the oil circuit to stock as close as possible. Too many variables here. Just out of curiosity, did you replace the plastic breathers in the heads with the 2002 up metal design? It's supposed to reduce backpressure and improve oil separation.
 

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MarkCrain said:
Almost forgot, I align the pump buy installing plate leaving pump barly snugged and rotate the engine a few times then tighten.
The procedure that LAF describes is the 'official' HD method introduced after some issues with sumping and oil carry over due to misaligned pumps. I would go by the book, one step at a time, but this is just anal me
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I don't have the studs to line the pump up. My book(old and well used) says to line it up jast as I do. I had heard issues about it though like you said. Your thoughts on cooler location? Hate to go back together just to try going without cooler. Once many moons ago I connected the cooler hoses together with no drop in pressure ( cause I always had x-tra high oil pressure)but I don't think I had a sumping problem then.
 
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