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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Folks:

Want to share our findings in regards to the strange overheating and loss of power issue as discussed in http://v-twinforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64138

Followed the following 'root cause' analysis:

Check leak down: Result 3%-5% GOOD
Cold comp : Result 190/195 PSI Excellent
push rod adj. : Result as per specs

Observed very rapid emptying of oil bag after engine shut down, which indicates a potential sumping problem.

Opened the cam chest and found oil level to be 2.5" - 3" above the bottom of the chest indicated by 'watermarks' in the cam chest cover
Disassembled pressure relief system, had difficulties to get the plunger out of the bore, with compressed air we were able to drive it out. Very little wear marks, shiny surface at the bottom of the plunger

Decided to open the cam plate and the pump. Pressure gears of the pump with lots of pits and wear marks, significant scratches and groove on the inside surface of the cam plate. Scavenge pump gear set totally destroyed with broken outer ring. Obviously, an alien object went through the mesh and completely destroyed the pump. Alien object was found in the bottom feed openings of the pump. Current assumption is this to be a tooth or a part of a tooth of the a sprocket of the counterbalancing system. We will split the cases tomorrow for inspection of the counterbalancing system.
Any other potential candidates? The object is definitely steel with machined surfaces.
We found debris all over the cam chest and in the oil filter. No visible marks on tappets, tappets bores, cams or cam gears.
Course of action will be:
Inspect crank for tolerances
Thoroughly clean all parts of the engine that are part of the oil circulation.
Replace all bearings/bushings/gaskets

In case the sprocket on the crank is the culprit, I will have to replace the crank.
Any thoughts on the subject or ideas what to do once we have the case apart?

PS Probably rode 500 miles with the defect and she was still running. No idiot light (oil pressure) came on, no unusual noise, only overheat and no power above 3500-4000 rpm.

See attached pics for your viewing pleasure, will post 3 more in the next post
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Cream of the crop synthetic: BelRay 10W50, religiously changed every 3000 miles (with Chrome HD filter of course) ......................................
 

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Wear marks on the cam plate is normal....and I might add they are wearing straight which means the oil pump was aligned correctly. If the plunger was stuck make sure it moves freely before using the cam plate again.
Good Luck.
 

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Those pictures make me want to hurl. Sorry man, that really sucks.
 

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I am truly sorry to see that mess. I am wondering what caused it and what the piece it came off of looks like.

Hope you get squared away.
 

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fijfi said:
Gotta be a paying member in order to view attachment.

Ditto what hdmarsh77 said.
Thanks, I understand that, but what used to be post#5 were links on MSN and the new post now is just red X's.

No big deal, my unreliable wireless often balks at things, I was just interested in seeing the pics because I have a hard time believing that a piece of balancer sprocket would make it up there. Once the cases are split and the positioning of the scavenge port is observed it will shed some light on this line of thought.
 

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To clarify, there have been instances before where a broken scavenge gerotor was found, and the speculation at the time was that it was caused by shifted flywheels as indicated by really excessive runout on the pinion shaft.
Never saw the parts or the pictures either, but the persons that posted it have good credibility.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
HIPPO said:
To clarify, there have been instances before where a broken scavenge gerotor was found, and the speculation at the time was that it was caused by shifted flywheels as indicated by really excessive runout on the pinion shaft.
Never saw the parts or the pictures either, but the persons that posted it have good credibility.

HIPPO, I found another way of posting pics through a hosting service. Hope that works for all now.

The second picture shows the fragment embedded on the bottom feed holes of the pump. We pryed it out for the two pics at the end of this gallery.







 

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Sort of bothers me that right now I can't identify from what specific part the debris comes from, and it's hard to tell exactly how big the pieces are when not looking at them in real life, but using the inner pump body as reference they look too big to have come thru the scavenge hole in the case (not where the O ring for the pump goes, but the actual pickup hole in the case).

Whatever it is may fit thru the cam compartment scavenge port, but I even question that. In fact I have a hard time picturing the pump having enough suction to lift such a large piece.

Guess we have to think some more.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The piece is about triangle shaped, about 4 mm long, about 3mm wide at the base. Will supply a macro pic with a gauge for comparison. Gotta work now............

Thanks

By tonight my time we should have more evidence on the origin of the part
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
TC power loss: Final episode 'The culprit revealed'

Split the cases today, balancer sprockets/assembly checks out OK, metal debris all over the inside of the crank case, pulled the crank and



DRUM ROLL:​
Left side crank bearing disintegrated and sputtered metal debris all over the internals of the engine. Major piece got into the oil pump and destroyed it. As to the pumps ability to scavenge even fairly large parts of 100 Cr 6 roller bearing steel from the sump of the crank case and deposit it in the pump, well it can........

Luckily the engine did not seize and caused a lock up of the rear wheel. Well, after all it's a tractor design

Survivors of Harley's design crime so far:
2 complete heads (Dewey's Pro Streets)
Crank cases (well, got to save the 100th anniversary medallion on the left case, right?)
37 G cams/gears
counterbalancer weights with wear marks


Dead on disassembly:

Everything else

Remarkable:
No distinct noise!!!, a little rough but that was it and some 'vibrations' at low rpm idle 1800-2200 rpm. Cross hatching after 22k miles as new

We do not have no conclusive evidence of the crank condition yet, but would appreciate the pros input on how to clean the rod bearing in case the crank geometry is still good after the assault with roller bearing shrapnels .


Cases go to Zippers for Timken conversion, hate to do this because of the shipping costs. Can I try this at home? Have an excellent machine shop on hand that only needs precise instructions............

Guess we have to re-write the book on performance limits of the left side straight crank bearing. Oh by the way, 2 years warranty (not that it matters) expired 4 weeks ago.

Needless to say that I am p$ssed off, Harley saves a $5/engine and I spring for at least $5000.


cylinder



spacer between stator and crank bearing



left side crank bearing


marks on balancer weight


Damage to balancer housing
 

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Sorry to hear the bad news.

It broke the lip of the outer bearing race that controls the end play, that explains the unusual shape of the debris.

I guess we have to rethink the possible, ie with the cases split you can see the size of the hole that initially picks up the scavenge oil and the pieces of debris looked bigger then the hole.

Further bad news is that once you are here there is no reliable way to clean the big end rollers, and one would suspect some intial damage already. Contrary to what some people claim once pressed apart for inspection they can not be reliably pressed together again unless it is a very sophisticated operation like Falicon or EMC. Repair parts for OEM sets are not available either.
If you consider the total cost of the mishap a new set of wheels is about 10%, not worth risking it.

If you have access to a real good prototype machine shop you might want to look at the alternative case mod that EMC uses for the Timken conversion, ie they use a threaded insert and just perhaps they would sell you the insert and the cases could be threaded locally. It would save you shipping the cases twice around the world, and a lot of time.
No promises though, as I can see that they may be reluctant. See if you can get hold of a dude by name of Steven Miller. He might also have some unconventional input re the crank as they are sort of a skunks works on these things.
http://www.emcv2.com/accserv/acc-timken/timken.htm
 

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Man that just sucks. How many miles on the bike/build? This in the first time I have seen a documented case of this.

I would love to hear what the opinions are on WHY? I mean other then the obvious s$it bearings, what would cause it?

Also where and what is that piece of metal? It looks like all the rollers are there so what was that asteroid in the initial pics?

ViennaHog I just don't know what to say except if there is anything I can do to help you gather parts or expediting shipping in some way let me know. Not sure on what it is like to deal out of the USA but I imagine in this day and age it is a little tricky at times.

The documentation, that is very painful to look at, is first rate and I thank you for sharing that. Just sorry it was you:(
 

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I want to second everything LAF just said. You did a first rate job documenting this tragedy; which may help us all learn a thing or two.

Just wondering what you're thinking now for the rebuild. I guess if it were me, and I had to get new flywheels anyway, I'd be putting in the 103" stroker flywheels or some such equivalent. I haven't done the homework on it, but I'd assume the parts price would be comparable. We all know how you love the power...and with the timken upgraded bearings, you shouldn't have a repeat failure.

On a lighter note, you can sell some of those surplus exhaust systems you must have laying around (I remember a post sometime back on how you were on something like your sixth exhaust system) to help finance the rebuild. As another poster said, the timing of this could have been a lot worse and cut your riding season short. I know having a big bill like that would end my season...I don't have $5000.00 available for a rebuild.

Good luck buddy.

Clay
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
LAF said:
Man that just sucks. How many miles on the bike/build? This in the first time I have seen a documented case of this.

I would love to hear what the opinions are on WHY? I mean other then the obvious s$it bearings, what would cause it?

Also where and what is that piece of metal? It looks like all the rollers are there so what was that asteroid in the initial pics?

ViennaHog I just don't know what to say except if there is anything I can do to help you gather parts or expediting shipping in some way let me know. Not sure on what it is like to deal out of the USA but I imagine in this day and age it is a little tricky at times.

The documentation, that is very painful to look at, is first rate and I thank you for sharing that. Just sorry it was you:(
Total miles on the engine about 22000, the 'asteroid' is a piece of the lip of the outer race, that ended up in the pump. It's the only larger identifyable part of the lip and we can't account for about 20% of the lip.
In June at about 14000 miles I had loose comp nut, that was fixed using the new procedure. I am wondering if anything went wrong with that causing a mess like this.
Guys, thanks for your help so far, I am sure I will come with a few more questions along the way. Good thing that the season is over anyway.
Will go to Tucson mid March and rent a bike for a trip across Arizona and New Mexico, maybe i meet a few VTF members on the wide open road.

Thanks from Vienna
 
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