[Rustler]

I need some thoughts here. When I ride over 3000 rpm for a period of time the carb starts to spray a light film of oil into the a/c eventually it drips out and I get a film over the rear part of the engine and the bag.

'99 TC88 FLHT, stage one, with se203 cam, K&N filter, Bub exhaust. The head breather crossover tube is vented to a filter outside and seperate from the carb and the breather tube inlets to the a/c backing plate is plugged.

I have re-aligned the oil pump using the evo tapered pins as per a HD proceedure, I replaced the umbrella valves and filter elemnets (though they were soft and fexible and the elements though dirty were not overly so or burnt.) I checked the cam area gaskets to insure that no oil passage holes were obstructed (an idea from another board).

Still is happening - any thoughts?

 

[HIPPO]

Well, your case is somewhat different from all others with this problem because of the details, and you have had the oil pump aligned which is part of the puzzle.
The breather hose is vented to the atmosphere, so this can not be the source.
IMHO it is impossible in any halfway decent running engine for the carb to spit oil out.
There are only two possibilities that come to mind off the bat.


If you have the SE setup the breather manifold is sealed against the heads with soft metal washers, they are somewhat difficult to locate correctly, have to be replaced every time they are taken apart, and have a habit to leak. Maybe the leak is coming from the breather bolts and you just think it is coming from the air cleaner. Sometimes you also find burrs on the sealing surfaces of the breather manifold.


The carb is actually spitting fuel into the air cleaner and it dissolves the air cleaner oil.
Could be due to exhaust reversion from an unhappy pipe setup, or some sort of carb problem usually with the float or float level.
Could be a discrepancy in valve timing. Early TC's had an issue with cam gear keys and bolts. One would think that with 203's the setup was updated with splined camgears, but if it was done early in the life of the bike there is a small chance the original setup is still in there, very unlikely but possible. This will also cause reversion.

If you still have the problem we may have to think about it, but the above items have to be 100% right, checked, double checked and triple checked.

 

[HIPPO]

If you had an internal problem like blocked oil passages or umbrella valve filters it would be puking out of the hose that is now vented to the atmosphere, so you might as well forget these items.

 

[Rustler]

Originally posted by HIPPO
IMHO it is impossible in any halfway decent running engine for the carb to spit oil out. - I agree

Maybe the leak is coming from the breather bolts and you just think it is coming from the air cleaner. Sometimes you also find burrs on the sealing surfaces of the breather manifold. - Yea I thought of this - remounted the whole set up after checking the washers with kleenix for burrs - none and no evidence of oil on either bolt or the crossover tube.


- The carb is actually spitting fuel into the air cleaner and it dissolves the air cleaner oil. Could be due to exhaust reversion from an unhappy pipe setup, or some sort of carb problem usually with the float or float level. - carb has been checked and re-checked - how can I check the reversion short of installing new pipes (none available)?

- camgears, - changed with the installation fo the 203's as was the bearings

where you at? I'd love for you to look at it - I am about at my wits end

 

[HIPPO]

Well, you have a good understanding of the problem. You can see that unless you have a small leak from the rocker box area these are the only possibilities. I have never had any luck using the sealing washers more then once, and I use blue loctite to seal the threads of the breather bolts.

The way I would go to narrow it down to either one or the other, would be to temporarily install a Ness Big Sucker, if I could borrow one. Same venturi shape as SE but it would virtually eliminate the possibility of the breather manifold/seals/bolts. Or you can spray the entire area with tracing powder, like is used to trace difficult leaks in automatic transmissions, run the bike with the air cleaner element dry, and ride it until the leak just starts to show. This way you can pinpoint exactly where it is coming from.
How about installing the stock slipons just for testing purposes.

If you have access to a shop, again with the air filter element dry, you can add ultraviolet die to the engine oil, and if you wanted to even to the fuel, one or the other, and then you would know with 100% certainty if it is engine oil or fuel.

The 02 bikes seem to be a little less susceptible to this problem, and the only difference is the oil return setup, as it now returns to the oil filler above the oil level totally eliminating the possibility of an airlock in the oil return. This is just a theory for now, but it wouldn't take much to retrofit the bike with new parts, basically a oil filler housing and a hose.
I have not tried this yet, but might be worth to try as a last resort if it is oil. These bikes are extremely sensitive to oil level and it's best to run them a shade low.
Experience has also shown that using a good synthetic oil reduces the puking in severe cases and eliminates it in mild ones.

I'm about 30 miles east of Phoenix. If you happen to come this way the fellow I consult with on electronics has a high end performance shop, and they are as good as anyone in the country.

 

[Rustler]

My post disappeared - wel maybe I hit the wrong button who knows anyway came back to edit it with a question
Originally posted by HIPPO
Or you can spray the entire area with tracing powder, like is used to trace difficult leaks in automatic transmissions, run the bike with the air cleaner element dry, and ride it until the leak just starts to show. - I'll see if I can find that powder - I'm in the sticks but who knows

How about installing the stock slipons just for testing purposes.wouldn't this increase the reversion problem if in fact there is one? not available anyway.

retrofit the bike with new parts, basically a oil filler housing and a hose.
I have not tried this yet, but might be worth to try as a last resort if it is oil.I am almost there have any more on the retro fit process? part numbers ect ect?

good synthetic oil reduces the puking in severe cases and eliminates it in mild ones.I use mobil one vtwin for at least 15k now - no change in the pucking

Another board said - "its a harley get used to it" - sheeeez

Just heard an idea - what do you think of it? - increasing or decreasing the distance the carb is mounted from the manifold (gasket change)should change the reversion (if that is the problem) by moving the problem rpm point up or down within the range.

 

[HIPPO]

How about installing the stock slipons just for testing purposes.wouldn't this increase the reversion problem if in fact there is one? not available anyway.

Not necessarily, really hard to say what goes on in the pipes. We intellectually know what happens, but the equipment to measure the magnitude and timing of these pressure waves is not available other then to F1 engine manufacturers, maybe a few others, due to cost and complexity. Too many factors. All we can do is try the pipes on a given engine and see what they do.

I am almost there have any more on the retro fit process? part numbers ect ect

I have not done one yet, but in the 02 accessory book and suplement it shows a chromed filler housing for 02's and a chromed oil return line for same, or you could just use OEM parts. Only possible additional thing I can see you would need is clamps and maybe a fitting. If you are unable to go to a dealer I can look them up again next time I go there, as I look at these books when I get them to see what's new and throw them away.

Just heard an idea - what do you think of it? - increasing or decreasing the distance the carb is mounted from the manifold (gasket change)should change the reversion (if that is the problem) by moving the problem rpm point up or down within the range.

Yes, that might work. Since you mention "gasket" instead of "seal", does that mean you are running an S&S or is it just a form of speech? On an S&S setup it would be really easy to change the gasket and as a matter of fact they have micarta spacers to isolate the carb from engine heat and prevent fuel boiling. There is very little I can tell you about S&S carbs, as I never use them.




As far as getting used to it, there may be an element of truth in there somewhere. I think that while in extreme cases there might be one clear problem, in most mild cases the answer is in little details. If you want to be absolutely accurate, on my 99 I got it to the point where you had to run the bike over 4000 rpm for several hours continously at temperatures over 100F before it showed the slightest haze on the rear rocker box, runs like that are usually during long trips and I would wash the bike after anyway, so I decided not to pursue it any further as I did not consider it of any significance. So far the 02 has not done it, but you never know.

 

[chiselchst]

Great Thread -- I am going to school here!

I had a question about crankcase vents and AC's. I am about to do a stage 1 on a '02 FLHTCI. I was considering the Ness AC, but I was questioning whether I wanted my engine to digest (burn) the blowby oil. With the SE AC, the oil won't be introduced in to the engine, but might an external leak/mess. Is this a valid concern? With a "NORMAL" amount of blowby, would this lead to excessice carbon build up, and or plug fouling?

Any input GREATLY appreciated...

Thanks in advance!

Mitch

 

[HIPPO]

Not a problem in my opinion. When you really get down to it both the SE and the Ness intend for this oil vapor to be introduced into the intake charge. The Ness just has a more effective design in this respect.

Originally I preferred the Ness over the SE, mainly due to the better O ring sealing then the SE on which you had to remove the crossover every time you took the carb off and replace the sealing washers.

With the new design SE that eliminates the manifold for the most part this is no longer an issue as you would not remove anything other then the hoses when working on the carb or intake module in case of EFI. The late Ness kits also come with an element that is not a K&N and some have reported problems with it.

The way I see it as it stands now it comes strictly down to personal preference, in particular on 02 bikes which should have less of a puking issue if at all. On one side you have a better design and on the other a proven quality element and a more rugged assembly, pretty much a wash if you ask me.

If the bike develops a breathing problem it might become obvious sooner with the SE kit, but you would have to correct it either way.

 

[chiselchst]

Hippo,
Thanks for taking the time to respond...

I think I will go with the SE AC. I bought extended warranty time, so if there is excessive blowby, with the SE it should be easier to see. And especially after what you say about the K&N filter issue.

I will have the stage 1 ECM burn done too. Do you think it would be worth while to use a Power Commander in addition to the stage 1 burn? I was considering that a little later. They (PC) claim to run the fuel/air ratio lower than the H-D stage 1. They say they set it at ~13.8. I'm still not sure if it is worth it.

Thanks,

Mitch

 

[HIPPO]

Most Stage 1 Delphi bikes will run fine with just the reflash. The PC is great to compensate for bike to bike differences, but the Delphi EFI has "some" capability to compensate for "some" things, so it's probably not as critical as it was with the old Marelli system.

It's still a little bit in the air, as this is the first year of the Delphi in the baggers and it takes a while to gather data, but it should be OK to just run the reflash with a stage 1 bike.