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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When it comes time to putting a set of Ripsaws on my new 03 carbed Fatboy, (oh Yea....it's in!!!! :p), what are the pros and cons of going with the SE air cleaner-breather kit AND Dynojet kit vs. replacing the whole works with the S&S Super E complete kit that comes with a carb, intake, air cleaner, cover, etc. By time you buy the SE kit and Dynojet kit, you're almost up to the cost of the S&S kit.

Has anyone gone the S&S route? What do you think? Would you do it again? Why or why not?

What I'm concerned with is performance gains, reliability, and ridability, differences between the two.

Will the stock air cleaner cover fit on the S&S carb ?

Down the road, I plan on possibly doing some motor work. Would I be replacing the stock carb at this time anyways?

Also which ever one I get, I will be doing the wrenching myself.

Thanks for any input. If there's anything I need to be aware of and didn't mention, please chime in. Thanks
 

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Lots of opinions on what you're asking. Nothing at all wrong with the SE air cleaner kit if you get the latest version that came out this year. Skip the Dynojet kit and just rejet your carb using insts at www.nightrider.com in the Tech section. If all you're doing right now is a free flowing air cleaner of some type and a free flowing exhaust, I would just put a 1988 sportster needle in the CV and unplug the mixture screw so you can adjust it. The stock CV carb is a great carb and has been used quite a bit for engine mods that produce HP and torque all the way up to high 90's. While the S&S E carb is a good carb, I personally think the Keihn CV or a Mikuni does a better job. Another advantage of the CV carb is its ability to handle major elevation changes without a problem. If you are going to do extreme engine changes later on, then definitely keep the CV for now. You may want to go to a 42MM Mikuni or larger SE carb later depending on what you do to the engine.
 

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I'm hearing a lot of complaints lately about the Ness "Big Sucker" kits. The quality has gone downhill badly. Evidently, they have changed manufacturers and the end result is not good.
 

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I have the Ness Big Sucker on my LowRider. I also have Cycle Shack slip-ons.I farted around all summer long trying to get the jetting right. I was running lean and blowing gas into the air cleaner at the same time. I tried all combinations of jet sizes, and nothing seemed to be right. Then I found an article in American Rider magazine by Joe Minton. He says to leave the stock jets alone and stick in a needle and needle jet from an '88 sporty. I did this, and it works great! No more farting, backfiring, or blowing gas in to the air cleaner. Wish I would have done it sooner. Mileage went up too. Total cost was $16.00 for the needle and needle jet.

As for the Ness air cleaner, it's pretty good, seems to pass lots of air. It doesnt have a K&N filter in it though. And I heard that Alen stole the design for the Big Suker from somebody else. Now that the Screamin' Eagle backplate has been redesigned, I would probably buy that instead.
 

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Scott:

That's exactly what I told him in my post above about the sportster needle. It does work great. Just as a matter of interest, the needle is all that has to be changed. The needle jet has been the same from the one that is in the 1988 sportster all the way thru the carbed big twins of today. At least, that's what the parts books say. I just use the new needle
when I do a carb.
 

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Cool.....you can save yourself the $8.00 for the needle jet then. I didn't think that they looked all that different, but I had no way to accurately measure the jets. There is a huge difference in the needles though, your mid range will really improve.
 

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Scooter'68 or Ed Y,
With a stock 02 FLSTF I,m planning on V&H staggewred bigshots and was considering a Mikuni HSR42 and possibly ignition. I'm rethinking staying with the stock carb now. Would just instaling the 88 sporster needle negate the need to "rejet" the CV carb? Also, is this the main jet needle and any thoughts on what ignition to use? Future upgrades will probably be 95c.i., cams, and maybe heads.

Thanks, Donald
 

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fatboyryder said:
Scooter'68 or Ed Y,
With a stock 02 FLSTF I,m planning on V&H staggewred bigshots and was considering a Mikuni HSR42 and possibly ignition. I'm rethinking staying with the stock carb now. Would just instaling the 88 sporster needle negate the need to "rejet" the CV carb? Also, is this the main jet needle and any thoughts on what ignition to use? Future upgrades will probably be 95c.i., cams, and maybe heads.

Thanks, Donald
Donald:
The needle in a CV carb is basically the intermediate circuit. The other jets in a CV are the slow jet and the main jet. They can be left as is when using the sportster needle and stock engine. The HD part # is 27094-88. And yes, that's all you would need to do as far as jetting. The plug on the mixture screw needs to be removed and adjusted at the same time. Are you going to change incoming air flow also?? Like putting a K&N filter in the stock air box or installing the SE air cleaner/backing plate kit. You would have to do this in the future anyway if you're going 95, cams, etc. You really don't need to change the ignition right now. I would wait until you do the big bore, cams, etc. Lots of different ignitions on the market. Crane and TwinTec make a good one. The TwinTec ignition is also marketed by Headquarters and Zippers, if I remember correctly. These ignition modules are changing rapidly so that's the reason I would wait. Bike will run fine with stock one with only free flowing exhaust and air cleaner change.
 

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Ed Y,
Thanks for the info! Your willingness to share your experience and knowledge is greatly appreciated by us FNG's :) I was considering the cool (but pricey) hd air cleaner cover P#29745-00. It requires a SE air cleaner kit with cone shaped filter. I'd rather go the K&N route-- do you know if K&N has a filter element that'll fit with the air cleaner cover I mentioned, and will the increased airflow in combination with the less restrictive exhaust require any jeting changes other than the sporty needle? If the K&N filter won't fit, any other air cleaner suggestions? I read your post regarding the problems with the Ness Big Sucker.
Thanks,
Donald
 

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fatboyryder said:
Ed Y,
Thanks for the info! Your willingness to share your experience and knowledge is greatly appreciated by us FNG's :) I was considering the cool (but pricey) hd air cleaner cover P#29745-00. It requires a SE air cleaner kit with cone shaped filter. I'd rather go the K&N route-- do you know if K&N has a filter element that'll fit with the air cleaner cover I mentioned, and will the increased airflow in combination with the less restrictive exhaust require any jeting changes other than the sporty needle? If the K&N filter won't fit, any other air cleaner suggestions? I read your post regarding the problems with the Ness Big Sucker.
Thanks,
Donald
Donald:
The SE air cleaner kit comes with a K&N filter. You would have to install that kit to use HD cover 29745-00. If you like that cover, get the SE air cleaner kit too(kinda pricey for both, too). I was talking about putting a K&N filter in the stock air cleaner setup you have on your bike now which means using the stock football cover. The sporty needle will work fine with the increased airflow on both the input and output side. I have been using the sporty needle and the SE air cleaner kit on my bike for quite a while now (60K miles). I've also installed the needle on quite a few bikes with a K&N filter in the stock airbox along with free flowing mufflers with good success. This makes a great streetable setup. Now, if you're after every last ounce of gitup and go and want to do Dyno runs, etc., then you're better off going the rejet route as detailed at www.nightrider.com.
 

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Ed Y,
Thanks again Ed, I think I've got the plan now. V&H Staggered BigShots, SE air cleaner kit with the new cover and the Sporty needle. Now all I need is a couple of warmer days. Long Island is 32F. today. Wish I was back in Fla!
Thanks,
Donald
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
EdY, Tex, Alien and Scooter. Thanks for the replies. I checked out the site you linked us to Mr. Ed and it was very helpful. I will definitly skip the S&S carb. By the way, I haven't been around here lately because I've been spending my time in the garage caressing my new fatboy! Picked it up yesterday....then it started to snow. Got only 50 miles on it.
Freezing cold and windy today. It's amazing how much polishing one can do on a brand spanking new ride!

By the way, I asked the dealer if I installed the Stage 1 air cleaner, rejetted the carbs, and put pipes on it if it would affect my warrenty. He said if I had any engine related problems it would most likely not be covered. Then I asked what if they do the work....he said the samething because most of the upgrades are for race applications only and the parts catalog states that installing those parts, voids any warrenty. So I may be waiting for a while before I do any mods......

Also Ed, you mentioned, if I understand correctly, that only the needle needs to be replaced with the one from the 88 sportser. But wouldn't also the main jet need replacing. Wouldn't the motor be lean at wide open throttle with a free flowing air cleaner and less restricted pipe?
Help me understand.....

Again, thanks everyone for your help!!
 

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That's really BS what the dealer told you about voiding the warranty. Any reputable dealer would not be making those statements. Every dealer in this part of the country installs those mods themselves. Even if installed by the owner, problems with the engine would have to be proven to be caused by the mod and that just ain't gonna happen. Unfortunately, if the dealer wants to deal that way, it would probably take a court action to prove him wrong. It would have to be done in court though. With that said, let me quote you some info on the carb that may help.
.........................................................................................................................

Even with the Screamin' Eagle or other hi-flow air cleaner and a set of free flowing mufflers, the stock main and slow jets are correct. You do not need to change the main jet when you fit a set of say, Cycle Shack slip-ons and a free-flowing air cleaner. Just install the new needle, remove the aluminum plug over the mixture screw and adjust it outward for best idle.

With these two simple modifications, your Twin Cam, Evo or Sportster motor becomes the civilized and responsive powerplant it can and should be. Why is the solution so simple, you ask? Because the only area in the throttle range where stock Harley engines are lean is in the first quarter of throttle slide movement. That is where government controls require such lean mixtures. The straight-diameter part of the needle, together with the needle jet it fits into, controls mixture in this throttle range. When the needle's straight part is smaller in diameter - which the early Sportster needle is - and the mixture gets richer, the engine runs better.

The stock main and slow jets are OK for two reasons. The mixture screw controls the slow jet's fuel delivery into the engine at idle and very low speed, and it is a simple adjustment. The main jet doesn't figure into emissions testing. Harley, like most manufacturers, fits a slightly large main jet to make sure the mixtures do not become too lean at full throttle with free-flowing air cleaners and exhausts. Therefore, when you fit that combination of free-flowing air cleaner and mufflers, the main jet becomes correct . The slow jet is the right size in the first place. It simply needs to have its delivery volume increased with the mixture screw.
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Hope that helps. By the way, for you up north guys, I just got back from a Toy Run at 6 pm. Temps in mid to high 50's. Nice day for a ride.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for clearing that up Ed Y. Yea, dealer wouldn't come out and give me a yea or nea about the warrenty about pipes, rejetting etc. But it makes me wonder if they REALLY rejet your carbs when they do the work for you or if they are just changing the needle.

Funny you mentioned in the article about being lean around 1/4 throttle because when I roll on the throttle thru this range, my motor stumbles.
Dealer said it was normal because the carbs are set on the lean side for emissions and said that rejetting, stage 1 air cleaner, and pipes would correct this. But I figure if it's stumbling because it's lean thru that area of the throttle, it can't be good on the motor. Next time I ride, I'll try and give it a little choke (enrichening) and see if richening it up does anything. The manual, however; states that the enrichener doesn't work like a normal choke and it may not richen the mixture once you open the throttle??? I'm not really sure how this works......but I'll try it anyways.

Can I ask where you got that info from? I would like to do more reading. Also, even with going with the Ripsaws without any baffles, the stock main jet would be ok? Sorry I keep harping, but it's tough to teach an old fart new tricks :p

50' you lucky dog. When the dealer called to tell me my bike was in, it snowed the next day. (first snow of the year) Picked up my bike Saturday and it started snowing an hour later. Now its windy and freezing cold. Enjoy your nice weather!!!
 

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The CV does have an enrichener. All this means is it feeds more gas straight into the throat as opposed to a choke which cuts off air, thus richening the mixture. The info on the carb came from an article in American Rider by a well respected carb guy by the name of Joe Minton. He's in CA somewhere and is a consultant or advisor to Mikuni, I think. I don't remember what month or year it was though.

Haven't had any experience with Ripsaws but removing baffles might produce loud even though it may make it a bit** to tune. It also may have an effect on main jet. I'm not a fan of running drag pipes or pipes with no baffles unless you spend all your time at WOT. Backpressure is needed. Before I quit working, I wouldn't even tune a bike with drag pipes. Just my opinion.
 

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Well we got 6-12" of lake effect snow here yesterday, so there wont be any riding soon, but it did make for a fun time at the Bills game.

The article by Joe Minton appeared in the October 2001 issue of American Rider magazine. I can scan it and E-mail it to ya if ya need it.

My salesman told me that it would NOT void my warranty if I did the pipe and air cleaner change. Also told me that it would NOT void the warranty if I re-jetted the carb too.

Most shops want to install bigger slow and main jets, and this is what initially tried. I still had farts, and now I had backfiring out the mufflers, and gas dumping into the air cleaner cover. The dealer said I should put in a #50 slow jet to eliminate the carb farts. I tried it, and it did get rid of the farts but it was running so rich I could hardly breathe while the bike was idling at a stop light. I was almost ready to buy a Mikuni just so I wouldn't have to fart around anymore. I then went through every magazine I had, and found the article by Joe Minton. I put the stock jets back in, and swapped out the needle. All is good now!!! When it's cold out, I get an ocassional carb fart, but not like I used to.

If you're gonna put ripsaws without baffles, you may to do more than just swap out needles. You may have problems with reversion too. I wouldn't run pipes without baffles, but thats just my opinion :D I do want to get a set of ripsaws fer my LowRider though!

Good luck...and enjoy the new ride while ya can!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks again Ed Y for your help.
Scooter, if I understand correctly, your "carb farts" were due to the mixture being to rich? Just curious. I'll e-mail you my address. If you find the time, could you please mail me the article. It would be greatly appreciated.

As far as the dealer goes, I should as someone in the service dept. as far as the warrenty is concerned. Just to get another person view point.

I really like the looks and sound of the Ripsaws. Would the reversionary cones help at all? The new Biggun II Ripsaws are baffled, but I haven't seen or heard these yet in person. Got plenty of time to decide. Thanks
 
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