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Discussion Starter #1
Looks like neither of your guys knew how to set up the fueller.

What's important is how it sets up the RPM ranges. Basically thefirst guys set tup the low range so that it was for up to around 1000 RPM, which is idle on a TC88. They set the mid range to go from 1000 to come on from about 5500, which is just a touch under your rev limited if you didn't have the stage 1 flash done.

The low fuel setting was maybe OK, could perhaps have been a little higher. But the others way too high bu wioth only the mid ones having any effect in day-today riding.

The RPM settings say it all, though, The first guys didn't know what they were doing and if the dyno man didn't know how the RPM setting pots worked either, he probably just gave up and set it all to zero without finding out.BTW the AE setting is also very high, it goes from 0-100% (unlike fuel pots which go from 0-50%), so at 7 you were dumping an extra 60 or so percent fuel every time you twisted the throttle, simply pouring in excess fuel. You only really want something like 15%.

Cheers

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #3
deuces said:
i need setting for a 04 road king, can anyone help?
You'll need to let everyone know whether you have stock or toher mufflers, where you have the stock or Screaming Eagle or other air cleaner and whther you have had the ECU reflashed before they can give you any advice.

Cheers

Mike
 

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woops i guess more info would help. i have a SE air cleaner and rinehart true duals. they want me to dyno but if i can get some idea on what setting to use i think i can get it close enough for now. later im planing on the big bore kit and then i will have it dyno. i just want it to run good without any popping. thanks..
 

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Discussion Starter #5
deuces said:
woops i guess more info would help. i have a SE air cleaner and rinehart true duals. they want me to dyno but if i can get some idea on what setting to use i think i can get it close enough for now. later im planing on the big bore kit and then i will have it dyno. i just want it to run good without any popping. thanks..
+ stage 1 ECU reflash?

P.S. I won't be able to help, but at least the info will be out there.
 

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Can't wait to see how this works for you. I have an 04 RKC w/Rineharts, SE Air Cleaner and EFI Stage-I reflash. Poppin between shifts (at low RPM) and during deceleration. I double/tripple checked the exhaust manifold bolts
for tightness and leaks, resealed the mufflers with copper silicone sealer and
the next step is the SE Pro-EFI Race Fueler. Dealer told me the "Race Tuner"
would definatly take care of the poppin but it's $400+. The Race Fueler may
NOT help very much.

Please post your results asap! Can't wait to know if this cures the
Un-Mary-Poppins issue that seems to be plagueing EFI runners. Wish I
had my old carb back.
 

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race fueler info

Michael Benis said:
Looks like neither of your guys knew how to set up the fueller.

What's important is how it sets up the RPM ranges. Basically thefirst guys set tup the low range so that it was for up to around 1000 RPM, which is idle on a TC88. They set the mid range to go from 1000 to come on from about 5500, which is just a touch under your rev limited if you didn't have the stage 1 flash done.

The low fuel setting was maybe OK, could perhaps have been a little higher. But the others way too high bu wioth only the mid ones having any effect in day-today riding.

The RPM settings say it all, though, The first guys didn't know what they were doing and if the dyno man didn't know how the RPM setting pots worked either, he probably just gave up and set it all to zero without finding out.BTW the AE setting is also very high, it goes from 0-100% (unlike fuel pots which go from 0-50%), so at 7 you were dumping an extra 60 or so percent fuel every time you twisted the throttle, simply pouring in excess fuel. You only really want something like 15%.

Cheers

Mike
Mike,
I have an 04 RKC - Screaming Eagle pipes, stage 1 + reflash. It has 2000 miles and has always run less than optimal at low speeds (between 20 & 35) after it warms up. Runs great at all speeds when cold. Seems to me that the EFI needs adjustment. After I had stage 1, the guy at the HD Dealer said that the map is given to them by HD & there is no adjustment (like a carb). It's miserable riding around town so I'm interested in learning about the different methods to tune the thing myself. I have been reading posts on power commander and race fueler, but how would this work with the road king (no tach)? Reading your reply to the last post, it looks like I can easily step on a land mine if try this at home.

Any advice for the inexperienced?
Fast Eddie
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Hi Eddie,

I am by no means an expert myself, but going on the other guys' experience and what some very well respected people, such as Frank (Hippo) have to say, it looks like the Techlusion/Dobeck TFI unit (also sold as the Revtech DFO) are a good combination of being easy to adjust, reliable and value for money. Unlike a Power Commander, which fits between the Engine Control Unit (ECU) and the harness that plugs into it and can cause problems if your sensor values are slightly below normal, the TFI plugs in between the ECU and the injectors. In addition, it's a load-based system meaning that you can often get better drivability (ride ability?) than the Power Commander. When set up properly (which is relatively simple and doesn't require a computer or dyno), the TFI generally also improves fuel consumption or leaves it more or less the same. If you set it up badly, the bike will only run rich but the timing will be unaffected. If you try messing around with the Power Commander maps you can make the bike run lean and also mess up the timing, which could cause engine damage.

The Harley Race Tuner acts directly on the ECU and is a far more sophisticated tool than either the Power Commander or TFI. It may be only solution if you have a sophisticated performance engine (big bore/stroker with high lift cams, high compression etc). On the other hand, you can't move it to another bike if you change models and it's the most complex to set up correctly. In in terms of real life on the road performance with a relatively mild or stock build, it is unlikely that you would notice any difference between a well set up Race Tuner and TFI. On the other hand, depending on where you live, it could be difficult to find someone who knows how to set up the Race Tuner properly. Not all Harley dealers are equally effective (gross understatement) in this respect.

Needless to say, from what you write, I reckon you'll be best off with the TFI with its additional harness for Harleys. It's not stunningly difficult to install, so if you're not too keen yourself a good independent or dealer should be able to do it for you. Either they or you should easily be able to set it up reasonably well.

If your bike doesn't suffer any drivability issues (stumbling, surging or perhaps just running very hot) because of the lean stock settings designed to keep the EPA happy, then you can probably just leave things as they are. But because ALL Harleys are set up on the lean side, any of the three solutions discussed are likely to result in somewhat smoother performance, improved responsiveness, a very slightly nicer exhaust note and slightly cooler running.

I hope that helps.

Cheers

Mike

P.S. I've just re-read your message.

I had exactly the same thing on my 2002.

First off, I'd recommend adding some injector cleaner, either from your dealer (fuel additifve) or any garage for around 300 miles. Some of the poor performance on mine initially was due to dirty injectors. You may also want to get the dealer to check that the fule pump pressure is correct.

My bike worked much better thanks to Redex injector cleaner. But you will probably get an even bigger improvement (assuming your injectors are dirty at all) from adding one of the tools listed.

I prefer the TFI, because I'm not dependent on anything if I want to change the settings anywhere for any reason on the road, apart from anything else).

They are the only ways of adjusting the fuel settings (apart from the Race Fueler which I think is an inferior product). The stage 1 flash is just a fixed map downloaded to the ECU. The Race Tuner is basically some sophisticated software that allows you to alter it manually using a computer. The PC lays its own maps over the ECU maps but mainly changes things in relation to throttle position and rpm and is not load based. The TFI is load-based and has four potentiometer dials to change its settings, one for low load conditions - cruising (green), one for rapid increases in load - acceleration (yellow), one for higher revs, higher loads - full throttle madcap stuff and overtaking at high speed (red pot) and a fourth pot that sets when the bike changes over from cruising to really pulling (generally above your cruising speed and at least setting 4 on Harleys). You don't need a tach to set it up. if you don't just want to use the standard setting recommend for your bike, maybe even leaning it up a bit, you only really need to concentrate on getting the green pot set at a highish idle and the rest follows from there. You can do a little fine tuning from the seat of the pants reponse you get, plus what happens to fuel consumption - and of course if you really want to, you can pull the plugs. If you've ever set up a carb you'll find it pretty easy. The green pot is like setting the pilot screw. The red pot is like setting the main jet. The rpm pot is like setting the needle height and the yellow pot is like setting the accelerator pump.
 

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Great post

Michael,
Wow! Very detailed and informative. This is what I have been looking for. Usually the people on the Forum are really knowledgable and writing to other really knowledgable Forum scribes. This is great but makes it a little hard to learn the fundamentals. But your post is excellent and I want to thank you for taking the trouble to organize your thoughts.

My Road King could possibly have dirty injectors - although I would not have thought of that, since it only has 2000 miles and it has been doing this since day one. I thought that the stage 1 new-improved air intake and new fuel map might cure the low speed problem, but it didn't. However it does run much better at highway speeds (60 mph) though.

I'm new here in Columbus, MS (just moved from the Washington D.C. area almost a year ago) and don't know many people yet. I did meet two police guys (off duty) on bikes at a gas station about a month ago. They ride with a group of Law Enforcement officers and invited me to ride with them. So this weekend we are going on an all day ride to Hattisburg, MS. Can't wait. One of them is a motorcycle (Harley) policeman and I'm going to get his opinion on my problem. Since no one else seems to be having this problem I want to make sure that it's not just my imagination.

Thanks again - I will read and re-read your post. There is a lot of information there & I'm slow. My first thoughts is to get the TFI (RevTech) and have someone who knows what they are doing to install it. I'll try to find out more about it from the company web site.


Eddie

Michael Benis said:
Hi Eddie,

I am by no means an expert myself, but going on the other guys' experience and what some very well respected people, such as Frank (Hippo) have to say, it looks like the Techlusion/Dobeck TFI unit (also sold as the Revtech DFO) are a good combination of being easy to adjust, reliable and value for money. Unlike a Power Commander, which fits between the Engine Control Unit (ECU) and the harness that plugs into it and can cause problems if your sensor values are slightly below normal, the TFI plugs in between the ECU and the injectors. In addition, it's a load-based system meaning that you can often get better drivability (ride ability?) than the Power Commander. When set up properly (which is relatively simple and doesn't require a computer or dyno), the TFI generally also improves fuel consumption or leaves it more or less the same. If you set it up badly, the bike will only run rich but the timing will be unaffected. If you try messing around with the Power Commander maps you can make the bike run lean and also mess up the timing, which could cause engine damage.

The Harley Race Tuner acts directly on the ECU and is a far more sophisticated tool than either the Power Commander or TFI. It may be only solution if you have a sophisticated performance engine (big bore/stroker with high lift cams, high compression etc). On the other hand, you can't move it to another bike if you change models and it's the most complex to set up correctly. In in terms of real life on the road performance with a relatively mild or stock build, it is unlikely that you would notice any difference between a well set up Race Tuner and TFI. On the other hand, depending on where you live, it could be difficult to find someone who knows how to set up the Race Tuner properly. Not all Harley dealers are equally effective (gross understatement) in this respect.

Needless to say, from what you write, I reckon you'll be best off with the TFI with its additional harness for Harleys. It's not stunningly difficult to install, so if you're not too keen yourself a good independent or dealer should be able to do it for you. Either they or you should easily be able to set it up reasonably well.

If your bike doesn't suffer any drivability issues (stumbling, surging or perhaps just running very hot) because of the lean stock settings designed to keep the EPA happy, then you can probably just leave things as they are. But because ALL Harleys are set up on the lean side, any of the three solutions discussed are likely to result in somewhat smoother performance, improved responsiveness, a very slightly nicer exhaust note and slightly cooler running.

I hope that helps.

Cheers

Mike

P.S. I've just re-read your message.

I had exactly the same thing on my 2002.

First off, I'd recommend adding some injector cleaner, either from your dealer (fuel additifve) or any garage for around 300 miles. Some of the poor performance on mine initially was due to dirty injectors. You may also want to get the dealer to check that the fule pump pressure is correct.

My bike worked much better thanks to Redex injector cleaner. But you will probably get an even bigger improvement (assuming your injectors are dirty at all) from adding one of the tools listed.

I prefer the TFI, because I'm not dependent on anything if I want to change the settings anywhere for any reason on the road, apart from anything else).

They are the only ways of adjusting the fuel settings (apart from the Race Fueler which I think is an inferior product). The stage 1 flash is just a fixed map downloaded to the ECU. The Race Tuner is basically some sophisticated software that allows you to alter it manually using a computer. The PC lays its own maps over the ECU maps but mainly changes things in relation to throttle position and rpm and is not load based. The TFI is load-based and has four potentiometer dials to change its settings, one for low load conditions - cruising (green), one for rapid increases in load - acceleration (yellow), one for higher revs, higher loads - full throttle madcap stuff and overtaking at high speed (red pot) and a fourth pot that sets when the bike changes over from cruising to really pulling (generally above your cruising speed and at least setting 4 on Harleys). You don't need a tach to set it up. if you don't just want to use the standard setting recommend for your bike, maybe even leaning it up a bit, you only really need to concentrate on getting the green pot set at a highish idle and the rest follows from there. You can do a little fine tuning from the seat of the pants reponse you get, plus what happens to fuel consumption - and of course if you really want to, you can pull the plugs. If you've ever set up a carb you'll find it pretty easy. The green pot is like setting the pilot screw. The red pot is like setting the main jet. The rpm pot is like setting the needle height and the yellow pot is like setting the accelerator pump.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You're welcome, Eddie.

I went though exactly the same thing. Also getting lots of popping on overrun, cutting out, runing hot. A real nighmare on a brand new dream bike....

MY bike had the dirty injectors from new, so it could be that. Add some injector cleaner and see if it makes any difference. It will cost you a dollar or so and waon't do any harm as long as you don't add to much....

But take it back to the dealer, too, and see what they say (if they're not too far away).

Then get the other guys to tell you what they think. Any of them that ride regularly will be able to recognise if it is sluggish and surging because of a lean condition, which is very probably the case.

According to H-D themsleves, the commonest cause apart from the fact that the bikes are set up lean anyhow is, as i said, either dirty injectors or low fuel pressure settings.

Good luck and let me know how you get on.

Cheers

Mike
 

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Need Map for RK Custom/VH Ovals/ Kuryakyn Air

Can anyone help me with a map for my 2004 RK Custom/Vance and Hines Oval slip-ons and a Kurakyn Twin Velocity Intake? After adding the slip ons :D and intake, I noticed some popping and the engine seems to run hotter :eek: . I used the closest PCIII USB Map I could find which was for a Vance and Hines slash cut slip-ons, SE Intake and Stock ECM. I was going to have it Dyno'ed but only have 600 miles on it and am not sure if its the right thing to do until the engine is broke in. Some say a dyno actually helps to seal the rings before the cylinders get too smooth. Any advice? :confused:
 

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"They are the only ways of adjusting the fuel settings (apart from the Race Fueler which I think is an inferior product)."

How come you feel the Race Fueler is an inferior product? I've used pretty much all of the EFI tuneing products and have never felt one or the other was inferior. They all have different features you just need to learn to use them. For small mods ie: pipes, air cleaner and small cams I use the Race Fueler, for big motor stuff it's the Race Tuner. For anything in the middle there all about the same so it boils down to cost and quality of product. I donot like adding anything more than I have to on the bike as it always seems to bite me in the a$$ when it fails on the road. Some customers already have one or the other when I start so that's what I use unless it will not get the job done.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
I certainly agree with not adding any more than you have to (like balancer shafts). The more there is on a bike, the more there is to break down.

I also get your drift about all the tuning products working in one way or another, so how can one rank them, but I think you can, particularly in terms of ease of use, reliability, quality control, type of application (suitability) and cost.

About the RF: it's not load based (despite some of the advertising claims) so it can't get the same results as a DFO/TFI in terms of fuel edconomy and "rideability" and it's also less easy to set up. Making things worse there seem to be QA problems with the pots and some guys have had difficulty adjusting the rpm ranges in particular. Overall, it's maybe marginally better than just using the faceplate buttons on a PC, which again is less effective as a basic "mousetrap" than the TFI. Guys fitting their own RF also lose out compared to either the DFO/TFI or PC because HD can't/don't offer support on basic settings.

I reckon if you have a built motor with high compression that needs timing adjustments it makes sense to get the RT (or DTT), otherwise the DFO/TFI works just fine for a lot less and can be switched across bikes if one's a "changer". The only call for a PC is on old MM bikes with high comp. The RF, on the other hand, is simply a "me too" product with no real advantages of its own over the competition, less support than its competitors and QA problems to boot.

Cheers

Mike
 

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Michael Benis said:
I also get your drift about all the tuning products working in one way or another, so how can one rank them, but I think you can, particularly in terms of ease of use, reliability, quality control, type of application (suitability) and cost.

About the RF: it's not load based (despite some of the advertising claims) so it can't get the same results as a DFO/TFI in terms of fuel edconomy and "rideability" and it's also less easy to set up. Making things worse there seem to be QA problems with the pots and some guys have had difficulty adjusting the rpm ranges in particular. Overall, it's maybe marginally better than just using the faceplate buttons on a PC, which again is less effective as a basic "mousetrap" than the TFI. Guys fitting their own RF also lose out compared to either the DFO/TFI or PC because HD can't/don't offer support on basic settings.

Cheers

Mike
I'm not sure where you would get the idea it's not load based, because it is! I have put a scope on the injector output and watched what goes on with both units and you would be amazed at what one see's. The RF adds a true % based on the pot setting the DFO doesnot! So if the base pulse of the bike is 1 ms the RT adds 50% to that, if the pot is cranked all the way up. If the pot is 1/2 way up it adds 25%. The DFO unit adds a fixed time amount based on the pot adjustment. This information isn't from the advertiseing hype but from myself with a scope on the injectors, give it a try and you will see for yourself! I noticed they worked different when trying to tune and just wanted to know why for myself so I did the testing so I could understand why.
I haven't seen any problems with adjusting the pots myself but I did notice on the new one I got last week they added a couple of small strips of foam above the pots. When the top is in place the foam is depressed into the pots to keep them from moving. As far as base setting I think that comes from the people who use them and then tell there buddys like we do on this board. I also like the three seperate ranges the RF has and the DFO doesnot. I think once people get to useing the RF and get use to how it works it will be well liked, but there is no way I could call it an inferior product. I still have one of the early DFO units that had a hole carved into the back of the unit for adjustment that you covered with a piece of velco! It looked like a two year old tried to make it.
As far as cost goes there about the same price when you add the wire harness to the DFO. Bought the last RF for 180.00 on the net from a dealer offering 20% off. DFO runs 150 + 40 for wiring harness. I just donot like taping into the factory harness and the plug and play of the RF makes it easy. I have found that I can remove the air cleaner and lift the rear of the tank up and get my hand into the injectors and just plug it in. The RF harness has the heat covering already on it so I just use a couple zip ties and tie it off along the center bar and put the unit under the seat or in the side cover area. Takes about 15 minutes on cold engine install.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
There's no denying the early DFOs were simply made, not that the RF is so complex itself, however,having to split the case to adjust it.

I agree with everythign you say about the harness already being fitted on the RFand the cost once you buy from Hales, Chicago and the other 20% off guys. On the other hand you can get a very good deal on a DFO + harness from Eastern Performance Cycles, for example.

Taking off the AC is a nice trick, though I find lifting the tank a little helps with routing the harness.

More importantly, however, I disagree with your load based analysis precisely because of what you yourself say: the RF adds a fixed percentage within the different rev ranges. FIXED. This percentage does not differ depending on load. The injector pulse width changes made by the DFO do vary both across the rev range and depending on whether the bike is accelerating or decelerating. You ideally need to test this on the road to see it on a scope. Having the low, mid and high pots on the RF is necessary precisely because the adjustment is not load based. It's not an advantage of the RF design, it's just part of its relatively unsophisticated approach, but it's also why it's more difficult to set up.

The DFO can be tuned easily by going one pot at a time and observing the resultant differences. Tuning the DFO yellow pot for a starting setting if you don't want to use their supplied base settings is very easy without any special equipment. Seat-of-the pants fine tuning after that is also easy and only complicated by being very sensitive. Getting the minimum necessary for good roll-on with the yellow is also a pretty straightforward affair and the same goes for the red and rpm settings.

Practically any owner or shade tree mechanic can get the DFO working just fine without any intensive head scratching. I just don't think you'll find that so on the RF, observing the different effects at different enrichment and rpm range settings. There's a lot more comparison between different settings to be done and a lot more reason for shops to charge dyno time and the rest but without the rider getting any of the benefits of a load-base system.

That's my take anyway. I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this, but I just can't see any advantage in the RF over the DFO for owners wanting to wake up their bikes without doing lots of engine mods and/or paying someone to mess with a dyno.

Cheers

Mike
 

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The RF does apply a fixed % to the original pulse but let's look at what's truly going on. The bike at 2000 rpm flat ground has a pulse width of about 4 ms @15% tps, when your going up hill 2000 rpm a pulse width of 10 ms @ 90% tps. The RF will add 25% to both numbers(pot half way), so @ 15% tps it adds 1ms and @ 90% it adds 2.5ms that's load based fuel control!

Now let's look at the DFO unit under the same conditions. Adjust the unit for 1ms adder @ 15% tps when you check it at 90% it still only puts out a 1ms adder absolutely no load based control but fixed pulse!

Like I said before they are different, but to say the DFO is load based and the RF is not is just wrong. I think as time goes on more pre-setting will become available from everyone using them. DFO has been out for a couple years to get the adjustments out, the RF only a few months.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Steve, I think that's where you're making the mistake if you'll forgive me for being so blunt.

Any fuel system has to change fuel delivered at different rpms for the engine to work, so tps adjusts for different loads but the RF behaves in the same way all the time. It will add whatever % you set it to (without any variation) at a given rpm in every gear irrespective of whether you're accelerating, decelerating running into a headwind two-up or downhill on your own. You're seeing a change in the RF % precisely because it is rpm-based. The only reason you're not seeing any change in the DFO/TFI readings is because you're correlating it to tps not load.

So, the results you're getting actually establish that the TFI is load-based whereas the RF is not. But your results are also questionable. If the yellow and red pot settings are different _you_ will find a difference between the % below and above the switchover point even for the same load.

Hope that helps.

Mike
 

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If the load was not changed then TPS would not change, that's a simple fact and easy to understand that's why I checked it there. Load is directly related to TPS, as a point of review look at an Alpha N based fuel system. With a fixed RPM and varying the load the TFI/DFO unit delivered a fixed pulse width adder. As a matter of fact it delivered the same pulse width adder up until the point that the RPM increased enough to cause the unit to switch to the next pot setting. Anywhere with in the one range the DFO delivered the exact same pulse width adder no matter what I did! So if it load based it should have changed somewhere with in the range, but it didn't. So by you own statements it's not load based. It adds the same amount of fuel up hill, down hill or decelerating.
Like I said before go get a scope and watch for yourself. I was not expecting what I found. The RF follows the load this is why you get different amounts of adder at the same RPM. If you care to call that not load based, OK difference of opinion. Also with the RF you get three ranges to work in plus the accelerator feature so you can add any amount in any of the ranges. The TFI/DFO only gets you two ranges and no accelerator. Both units work fine but different.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Steve,

didn't want to anger you on this, but tps does not unambiguously indicate load. Same tps in first gear or fifth, during acceleration or decelaration but very different loads. Manifold Absolute Pressure gives an indication of load, that's why the Delphi system uses it. Alpha N systems like the old MM are simple rpm+tps systems. The newer ones, like DTT, have reverted to this solution to avoid MAP fluctuation problems on built engines with large valve overlaps etc. In other words, nowadays their applications are different - more race than road use. The DFO/TFI is specifically for road use and doesn't use TPS info but injector pulse width, frequency, trend info.

Also, I presume you were taking your measurements on a dyno. How were you varying the load?

All in all, though, I think we can leave it there. I agree both the RF and TFI work - they add fuel to get over the EPA lean problems with hot running, surging, stumbling and the rest. But I stand by my earlier allegation that the RF is an inferior system and less suitable for the average Harley owner who just wants to wake up their EFI bike simply and reliably, getting easy-to-set improved sound, performance, driveability (rideability) and fuel economy to boot.

Cheers

Mike
 
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