[rpbrock]

I was reading about this set up in the Dec. issue of Hot Bike and wondering if it is the real thing. I was hoping some of you EFI gurus could enlighten us on the system. Such as:

Does anyone know what the approx. price is to purchase the system on a '04 or '05 EFI bike? (module, knock sensors, intake system, etc.)

Would it be more cost effective to purchase a system like this rather than a SERT or PCIII unit, if it is self tuning? Or do you still have to have a tech do all the tuning?

Will the unit work like the setup on most of our cages where it is "self tuning"?

Seems like other than having bungs welded on your pipes for the O2 sensors, it would be pretty straight forward to install?

Are any other companies besides Twin Tech working on an affordable Closed Loop system?

The article said the current Delphi system could be adapted to be closed loop. Can this be done cost effectively.

I'm just curious about this technology and it seems it would have been here a long time ago or at least since HD started fuel injecting bikes. My understanding about the '06 dyna is it is supposed to be a closed loop system but limited to what it can do. I'm just fishing for info here... I'm hoping Grock or Doc have played around with these and can give us the skinny about them. Pretty interesting stuff to me.

Thanks!

 

[wyodude]

Seems like other than having bungs welded on your pipes for the O2 sensors, it would be pretty straight forward to install?

Rineharts now come with a bung welded in place.

I think the install is simply swapping out the ECM.

This is the case for the ThunderMax EFI System I bought from Zipper's for my JIMS 120" motor.

 

[rodriguc]

There are several other companies that make their own version of a closed loop system, Twin Tec, Kuryakan (which I believe is the Twin Tec), Terry Components. The main difference with the S&S system (based on reading their website) is that, not only does it monitor the emissions at each header, it separately adjust each cylinder for the desired AFR...self-tuning. At about $900, this system will seem somewhat pricy upfront, but it may be an investment for anyone who can't seem to stop wanting to modify their engines, saving on dyno tuning costs.

 

[The_Snowman]

2005 Press Releases: 03/11/2005 - S&S Announces New Dual Feedback Closed-Loop Fuel-Injection System

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

S&S ANNOUNCES NEW DUAL FEEDBACK CLOSED-LOOP FUEL-INJECTION SYSTEM

VIOLA, WI (March 11, 2005) S&S Cycle announces plans to market its new Dual Feedback Closed-Loop Fuel-Injection system. For almost 50 years S&S Cycle has been known as the performance leader in the V-Twin market. Of their high performance engines, components, and assemblies, their fuel delivery systems have brought them the most success. Without question, the S&S teardrop air cleaner over an S&S carburetor is recognized worldwide as a performance icon.

Shortly after third-generation family member, Brett Smith, joined the company in 2002 he made a commitment to the future by strategically focusing the company on the proven performance of S&S fuel delivery systems. Working closely with the product development team, headed by Scott Sjovall, along with important input from engineer, Roy Meyer , they developed a dual feedback closed-loop fuel-injection system that would work in original equipment applications and continue to lead the performance industry.

The result of that effort is now here as S&S Cycle is the first company in the American V-Twin market to bring a Dual Feedback Closed-Loop Fuel-Injection system for big twins to the public. The system will be available with either the traditional S&S teardrop air cleaner or the new dual-runner induction system. This state-of-the-art system will increase engine performance while greatly reducing emissions output - essentially providing the best of both worlds.

"We have been testing this system in various settings for over a year," said S&S VP of product development, Scott Sjovall. "In addition to extensive laboratory testing, we have been conducting real- world road tests with a multitude of bikes in remote locations, along with riding to rallies across the country and the daily testing around our facility in Viola," continued Sjovall. "This is by far the most solid development program we?ve conducted for fuel delivery systems in years - this system has definitely proven its reliability and enhanced performance."

A select group of Original Equipment American V-Twin manufacturers will be using this system on specific 2006 models, taking advantage of the S&S closed-loop systems technology that allows a performance engine to meet stringent EPA guidelines and still deliver outstanding performance and excellent rideability. However, the S&S closed-loop system is not limited to O.E. manufacturers; it will also be available to qualified S&S dealers this fall.

Performance enthusiasts and shops across the world will appreciate the S&S closed-loop system tuning capability. Essentially it is self tuning, so once you load a basic map into the control module, the sensors - one per cylinder - will tune the bike constantly and for the life of the engine. From cam changes to pipe swaps, the S&S closed-loop system will tune the bike without hours of time on a dyno. Additionally, as the engine is subject to different types of riding, altitude, climate and load, the S&S closed-loop system will watch the performance of each cylinder and keep the optimum fuel mixture, while maintaining superior emissions control.

"Over the years, fuel delivery systems have put us on the map," said S&S president, Brett Smith. "Our re-commitment to these systems will allow us to be a one-stop experience for aftermarket performance enthusiasts, dealers, and OE's alike. This dual closed-loop fuel injection system is a premium, state-of-the-art product that will both improve performance of the engine and reduce gaseous emissions as we prepare for inevitable regulatory changes in 2008," continued Smith. "I am very proud of our world-class product development team for allowing us to be the first to bring this technology to the American V-Twin market; it is an honor to carry on the tradition that my Grandfather started back in 1958."

S&S Cycle has been a leading manufacturer of Proven Performance V-Twin motorcycle components and engines for over 45 years. George Smith and Stanley Stankos founded the company in 1958 in Blue Island, Illinois . Shortly after the founding of S&S, George, and his wife Marjorie (whose maiden name was also Smith), bought out Stanley Stankos and Smith & Stankos became Smith & Smith (S&S). In 1969, S&S moved from Blue Island to Viola, Wisconsin and expanded to La Crosse , Wisconsin in 2004. This 3rd generation business supplies components and/or engines to several large custom OEs including: American Ironhorse, Arlen Ness, Big Bear Choppers, Big Dog, BMC, Bourget Bike Works, Hellbound Steel, Swift, Titan, Ultra, Vengeance, & Victory (please see the S&S website for a complete listing).

For more information, please contact Brian Conyers at 608-627-0325 or at [email protected] . The S&S website is located at http://www.sscycle.com

 

[rpbrock]

$900 is costly upfront but if you consider the cost of a PCIII or a sert plus a couple of Dyno Tunes you're already there. I know I've spent that much and I still need some tweaking on the tuning side. Plus the A/F being monitored and adjusted on each cylinder would help on performance and gas mileage. The knock sensor seems like it would be one of the best benefits, allowing max advance and retarding automatically as necessary?

 

[MechaGodzilla]

I was reading about this set up in the Dec. issue of Hot Bike and wondering if it is the real thing. I was hoping some of you EFI gurus could enlighten us on the system. Such as:

Does anyone know what the approx. price is to purchase the system on a '04 or '05 EFI bike? (module, knock sensors, intake system, etc.)

Would it be more cost effective to purchase a system like this rather than a SERT or PCIII unit, if it is self tuning? Or do you still have to have a tech do all the tuning?

Will the unit work like the setup on most of our cages where it is "self tuning"?

Seems like other than having bungs welded on your pipes for the O2 sensors, it would be pretty straight forward to install?

Are any other companies besides Twin Tech working on an affordable Closed Loop system?

The article said the current Delphi system could be adapted to be closed loop. Can this be done cost effectively.

I'm just curious about this technology and it seems it would have been here a long time ago or at least since HD started fuel injecting bikes. My understanding about the '06 dyna is it is supposed to be a closed loop system but limited to what it can do. I'm just fishing for info here... I'm hoping Grock or Doc have played around with these and can give us the skinny about them. Pretty interesting stuff to me.

Thanks!

If your going to do a true closed loop feedback system, then your going to want to seriously consider the DTT TFCI2 system.

S&S VFI with "closed loop" add on is not really that much better than the stock Delphi system. It uses a pair of cheap stoich(14.5:1) narrow band 02 sensors and tries to keep your bike's afr locked around 14.5:1 on a canned afr and ignition map for the unit to run. Alot of money for a system thats really no better than the stock ECM that comes on your bike. Better off a TFCI2 system, or even a SERT, or the VFI WITHOUT the closed loop add-on. Your pretty much stuck running "EPA" lean if you add the closed loop option on the VFI.

 

[adlerx]

What about the terry components terminal velocity? only uses one o2 sensor but everyone I've talked to that have it love it. No reports of any issues. Anyone know more about this one? it's only about $500 and never have to dyno again!

 

[MechaGodzilla]

What about the terry components terminal velocity? only uses one o2 sensor but everyone I've talked to that have it love it. No reports of any issues. Anyone know more about this one? it's only about $500 and never have to dyno again!

For $500 I would do the DTT TFCI2. Much better flexibility, a complete system.

 

[floyd78]

Whats the web site for the DTT system?

 

[MechaGodzilla]

Whats the web site for the DTT system?

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/TCFI.html

 

[rpbrock]

If your going to do a true closed loop feedback system, then your going to want to seriously consider the DTT TFCI2 system.

S&S VFI with "closed loop" add on is not really that much better than the stock Delphi system. It uses a pair of cheap stoich(14.5:1) narrow band 02 sensors and tries to keep your bike's afr locked around 14.5:1 on a canned afr and ignition map for the unit to run. Alot of money for a system thats really no better than the stock ECM that comes on your bike. Better off a TFCI2 system, or even a SERT, or the VFI WITHOUT the closed loop add-on. Your pretty much stuck running "EPA" lean if you add the closed loop option on the VFI.

That's ineresting to know... I don't want to shuck out the cash but certainly wouldn't mind an option in a year or so down the road. I was hoping it was improving on the type of technology the Twin Tech uses. I've heard good things aboutthe twin tec but I remember reading some posts awhile back about customer service and the guy that runs the joint.

Anyway, this stuff justs interests me. Hoping to learn a few things about it and maybe look into trying something different on my scooter next year after I do my homework....

 

[adlerx]

For $500 I would do the DTT TFCI2. Much better flexibility, a complete system.

Well, in my case, there are a couple of problems with the DTT/TFCI2. First, it is for Delphi and I have Magnetti Marelli. Second, is this from their site...

"Tuning the TCFI requires competency in PC operation, using Microsoft Windows based programs, and basic engine tuning and fuel injection mapping concepts including the use of an exhaust gas analyzer to monitor AFR (air/fuel ratio). The TCFI installer is assumed to be familiar with the Delphi® fuel injection system and to have access to basic test equipment and factory service manuals. We suggest that you download the TCFI II Tuning Manual, study it, and make sure you feel comfortable with it before purchasing the TCFI system. "


I don't have a clue what they are even talking about much less how to do it so it would be back to the dyno for $300-500 worth of tuning whereas the Terminal velocity Alpha-N requires installation only(this I can do).
I understand that the DTT is a much more complete system but some of us arent trying to wring the last haf of HP out of our bike, just want it to run good and smooth.
I guess what I really want to know is, what is wrong with the TV/Alpha-N?
Those I have talked to have been very happy with it but that's only 2 people, who knows more about the plusses and minuses of this system?

 

[LAF]

For $500 I would do the DTT TFCI2. Much better flexibility, a complete system.

Well unless you are a VERY Competent Tuner, understand tuning dynamics like the back of your hand the DTT-TCFI is not your best choice.

It is VERY in depth, has endless adjust ability and the customer support is NON EXISTENT!!!!!

That said, I, and others have them, run them and me I can live with it. I see EVERYTHING there is to see in my logging maps, and the ability to do live viewing of engine running data is cool but then again you need it to set your TPS.

I fuss over it and am learning it still 6 month after installing it.

If I had not received off line help I would have put the PCIII USB back in and called it a day.

The TCFI is not for the feint of heart, or those who want a ride it and forget it plug and pray device.

 

[MechaGodzilla]

Well, in my case, there are a couple of problems with the DTT/TFCI2. First, it is for Delphi and I have Magnetti Marelli. Second, is this from their site...

"Tuning the TCFI requires competency in PC operation, using Microsoft Windows based programs, and basic engine tuning and fuel injection mapping concepts including the use of an exhaust gas analyzer to monitor AFR (air/fuel ratio). The TCFI installer is assumed to be familiar with the Delphi® fuel injection system and to have access to basic test equipment and factory service manuals. We suggest that you download the TCFI II Tuning Manual, study it, and make sure you feel comfortable with it before purchasing the TCFI system. "


I don't have a clue what they are even talking about much less how to do it so it would be back to the dyno for $300-500 worth of tuning whereas the Terminal velocity Alpha-N requires installation only(this I can do).
I understand that the DTT is a much more complete system but some of us arent trying to wring the last haf of HP out of our bike, just want it to run good and smooth.
I guess what I really want to know is, what is wrong with the TV/Alpha-N?
Those I have talked to have been very happy with it but that's only 2 people, who knows more about the plusses and minuses of this system?

MM? Then your choice is going to be more limited obviously. And if your not comfortable with programs as you said then other options should be looked into. Probably should have gotten a carb'd unit to begin with. A Carb with a system like an S&S IST ignition is a sweet setup.

Post a link for the Terminal velocity unit, I would like to take a look at it.

 

[MechaGodzilla]

Well unless you are a VERY Competent Tuner, understand tuning dynamics like the back of your hand the DTT-TCFI is not your best choice.

It is VERY in depth, has endless adjust ability and the customer support is NON EXISTENT!!!!!

That said, I, and others have them, run them and me I can live with it. I see EVERYTHING there is to see in my logging maps, and the ability to do live viewing of engine running data is cool but then again you need it to set your TPS.

I fuss over it and am learning it still 6 month after installing it.

If I had not received off line help I would have put the PCIII USB back in and called it a day.

The TCFI is not for the feint of heart, or those who want a ride it and forget it plug and pray device.

I had a TC88A ignition and was very happy with it. Had no problems with their tech support either, the few times I called they were very helpful. But I moved on to the S&S IST ignition system which was worth every penny, the product was a big upgrade to me. But the few calls I made to the S&S tech. dept. were like pulling teeth. Rude tech. people with the IQ equivalent to that of a turnip. If you want to complain about really poor tech support, S&S takes the cake. Every answer I got resulted in an answer like "I dont have that answer", "thats proprietary info I cant give out",or "Somebody else would know that". :stupid:

 

[adlerx]

MM? Then your choice is going to be more limited obviously. And if your not comfortable with programs as you said then other options should be looked into. Probably should have gotten a carb'd unit to begin with. A Carb with a system like an S&S IST ignition is a sweet setup.

Post a link for the Terminal velocity unit, I would like to take a look at it.

Thanks Mecha
the TV link is http://www.terrycomp.com/efi_cat.html
also, here's a link to a thread I had about this awhile back there's one of the guys here who has it and loves it, his comments.....

http://65.38.172.84/forums/showthread.php?t=63575

There was another thread but I can't find it...
tahnks
adx

 

[timbo]

I'm currently looking at the Terry unit myself. But I'm just stumped when realizing it only comes with one 02 sensor. The way I'm seeing this is that for whichever cylinder (lets say the front) pipe you've got the sensor in, that cylinder is basically the host representing the entire engine to the Terry. Your rear cylinder is still basically a slave to your SERT map. What would make sense to me is to have the bike dyno tuned with the SERT making sure both cylinders are operating in perfect harmony first. Then, for realtime constant AFR tuning install the Terry.

I wish Doc or someone would chime in on this to say whether or not this unit is even worth the bother.

 

[MechaGodzilla]

I looked the unit over, and from what I understand is that it piggyback's the main ecu and alters the afr like a Powercommander except that it has a O2 sensor to help dial in the afr. I assume you can set the target afr with the unit. But you still need to have a proper ignition map for the engine, whether its a canned reflash or something similiar. This item is probably OK for an engine with a few common bolt on modifications, but I would question using it if extensive work was done to the engine.

What needs to be brought to the fuel injected market is a product that not only adjusts the user programmed target afr by way of a wideband sensor, but one that also incorperates a self learning ignition map like that of the S&S IST system thats used for carb'd model bikes. Combine the 2 and most issues would be solved.

 

[styd24]

I assume you can set the target afr with the unit.

No, the unit is self contained, no programming or adjustments needed. Just wire into the Wire harness before the ECU and connect to a couple wires at the TPS sensor. No adjustement! It works on a optimal AFR (?? 14.3 or something). It required one adjustment to the Throttle Position similar to that required of the DTT TCFI unit.

But you still need to have a proper ignition map for the engine, whether its a canned reflash or something similiar.

True. They will recommend you either do it through a flash for your build or SERT. PCIII or DFO units will not work. You can tune the bike to optimal with the SERT by taking the TV unit out of operation, then when happy put it back in operation.


I have been running the TV since May '05. I had an initial set up issue and they worked with me to straighten it out. I have been pleased. Mileage when riding conservatively has been exception 200+ range on a '05 EG Std. When on the throttle it's like everyone else, 160-180. I have been comparing my EG performance to my Carb'd Dyna WG with similar setup (Stock engine, 204 cam) and felt I was leaving something on the table. I have Since ridden other touring bikes and feel that the performance is equal to if not better than other touring bikes.

My EG is still running the stock ECU, no flash at this moment. I will be doing some engine work and have not decided on a Flash or a SERT at this moment.

 

[styd24]

Thanks Mecha
the TV link is http://www.terrycomp.com/efi_cat.html
also, here's a link to a thread I had about this awhile back there's one of the guys here who has it and loves it, his comments.....

http://65.38.172.84/forums/showthread.php?t=63575

There was another thread but I can't find it...
tahnks
adx

The other threads are off in the Archive area! I use to be able to use Google to search through the archive but can't seem to get it to look there. I'll post back if I recall how!

Edited with how:
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=terminal+velocity++site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.v-twinforum.com%2Fforums%2Farchive&btnG=Search