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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wondering if anyone knows of a shop that has done a 116" kit on a delphi softail using the SE race tunner i am trying to find a map that will be close for breakin. my setup is

Jims 116" kit
S&S 585G cams
BC twa3pk heads
Pro Pipe

thanks
 

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IronButt
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I am working on a 107. You are not going to be able to supply enough fuel. The stock injectors will not flow enough fuel. ANd if you could get enough pressure to get the correct amount of fuel still not enough time to inject all fuel into cylinder due to the injector being too small..
I have my injectors at Russ Collins now to see what can be done.

Until some one can fit/ make a injector to fit the intake you are stuck. Or you could swap the whole intake out for a after market one and wire it back into the system.

The program will work, as will the pump. The pump at 45psi is capable of fueling up to 385hp and at 65 psi 235hp. I am in the same boat with you the injectors are running out of fuel for the 103's. Maybe HD will have a new injectors soon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Injectors

The guys at EMC make over sized injectors for the delphi bike you might give him a call
 

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IronButt
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They do not make a injector to fit the stock manifold. The large injectors they sell are Buell injectors that they have modfied. and are for the M/M system,or his intake setup. They will sell you a whole intake setup and you can wire it in. I called Frank at EMC said he could modify a new Delphi injector. He as of yet has not done this. And would have to drill the hole larger and then test to see where he was at. You will need a injector that is capable of flowing 475 +/- cc. I am ballparking that as I do not know your whole set up. A stock injector is 240cc+/- approx.

I need one that is 400+ at 65 psi. I plan on sending him mine as soon as I get them back from Russ collins.
AS for a map set the tuner for 116 with the High output map, and run it . That will give you a starting point and you can tune from there
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
injectors and new ecm by twintec

thanks on the info , could you let me know how it ends up since it looks like i will be needing them also ,

on the tunner you might be interested in the new unit comming out by twintec
incorperates a wide band o2 sensor here is the link

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/news.html
 

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Twin Tech could have saved their R&D money if they had known that HD would release the SE Tuner to the public this past fall. Now they have a product that is brand new.....and obsolete already for Delphi !!!
If you want an O Sensor - with AF Gauge on the bike - then install one. The Buells have the sensor - just not the gauge. True closed loop EFI.
No one is going to run stock HD/Delphi Induction Module/Throttle body and Injectors on a 116. Can't feed it when you want it.
Just look at the public RPM/HP/Torque performance curves for the 2003 carbed SERK103 versus EFI SERK103 from HD. Check out the area from 4500-6500 RPM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
What i understood about the twin tec was that the o2 sensor will interface with their ecm creating a closed loop system , even with the SE tunner you cant do that on the HD ecm. i sure hope the stock delphi will work , i did have it reworked by BC to a 47mm so if i can get the bigger injectors it should be good to go
 

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So how can ya tell that the injectors are not big enough? From the Race Tuner I'm using, there is no duty cycle to verify that the capabilities are exceeded. How did ya come to the conclusion? Did ya verify O2 values on a dyno at the upper rpm's with the projected A/F pegged out rich?

I'm in process of tuning a stroked FLHTCU-I and from what I'm seeing, the induction module opening is too small and suffocates the motor at higher RPM. Maybe we're both experiencing two different things...


Sunshine
 

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Its all in the Pulse Width(PW) in miliseconds. At 6000 RPM you got 20ms in the cycle and you best not be using more than 12-16ms or your fuels going right out the exhaust. Might as well run CIS ( That's continuous injection for the old farts) and even so the fuel isn't getting in fast enough.
The IM is also too small so there are two problems when you are at 103 and larger. Air fow and injector flow.
Should be cheaper to solve the injectors first before you buy a new IM and get it plumbed in.
Eagle Motor IM and Throttle Body setup looks the best if you want to just replace the whole mess and still use the stock Delphi ECM and all sensors with the SE Tuner.
 

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I did see the other day that Custom Chrome has now availabe an intake/Delphi system in two larger sizes(4MM&6MM as I recall).

Now that ya say it about the Ms for the injectors, I'll have to look at the bike I'm running. Like ya said, They may be vertually running with the pintle unseated at the higher RPM's due to the sizes of the injectors. We're supposed to be getting the induction module some time here shortly to test it out. I just wish the software was capable of doing a lot more. I've been using F.A.S.T electronics http://www.fuelairspark.com/ on automotive applications and they are much more capable to tune with but not "user friendly" for someone that does not have the knowlege(or dyno for that matter). Maybe we can talk them into producing one for the H-D stuff....Yea, I know...I'll keep wishing....


Sunshine
 

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The stock injector for Delphi has a maximum duty cycle of 50ms. It operates at 2-3 ms at idle. The SE Tuner will allow you to see the front and rear injector pulse width (PW) in ms when you do a data record.
The injector is either open or closed. There is no middle ground except for a theoretical microsecond on open and close.
The ECM opens and closes the injector to deliver the calculated quantity of fuel for each stroke. The time in ms that it is open determins the fuel.
The stock flow rate is 4.21-4.35gm/sec which converts to 360cc/min for comparison to standard injector charts.
At 1200RPM you got 100ms of physical cycle time to get in the fuel. This falls to 40ms at 3000RPM and to 20ms at 6000RPM and to 15ms at 8000RPM.
What we are seeing in the stock injector is that at 5000RPM and up for 103 and larger bikes the amount of fuel calculated by the ECM exceeds the ability of the injector to deliver the fuel fast enough given the physical cycle time.
An injector PW of 15ms is fine at 3000RPM but marginal at 6000RPM and in fact we are seeing PWs in the 20ms range in the 4000-5500RPM area for the 103.
At 6000RPM the injector should deliver the fuel in 10-15ms or less.
This likely means an injector in the range of 550cc/min versus 360 cc/min.
The injector flow rate is managed in the ECM static tables and the value will need to be reset when the larger flow injector is installed. The larger value will tell the ECM to have a shorter PW and thus the same calculated amount of fuel will be injected - just faster - that is the goal.
 

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Good data. At 5200RPM you got 23ms and the injector needs 21.3. No wonder there is no power!
5200RPM /60 sec = 86.666 RPS = .01153 SPR multiply by 2 = .023 seconds = 23 ms.
Gotta get the fuel in in about 12-14ms at that speed.
 

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IronButt
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Strange how I thought I would never need that math stuff back in High School. HA HA. Funny how when you do the math you can find the problem on lack of power yet there are shops building these new big inch motors and claiming some great number using the stock system!!! B.S. mostly or the run was done with a carb and not EFI. There is a big company that will re-main nameless that is toting a add of a 107 TC motor that is making over 124HP on the stock Delphi system.

I called them and asked about it , when I asked about the MS of the injectors they where a bit confused and said the stock system was working fine and they where even using it on a 124 inch without any problems. I would agree that the engine would run but no way up to it's full potential.

I am waiting to find out after the dealer show if they came up with a new SE injectors for the Delphi system. I hope so.
 
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