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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Inspecting underneath the bike tonight, saw the outer rubber on the oil lines going under the frame from pump to cooler (and the return to filter I guess) are worn away and down to the woven material beneath, where they rub the frame. (That popped my eyes wider.) All are original, I'm sure, and I feel stupid for not checking these years ago.

Was a little shocked at the price from J&P for simple rubber hose... Is there anything special besides making sure it's 3/8 ID, high temp, high pressure, made for oil or trans?
... 3rd review down from a Harley mechanic of 30yrs... (And yeah, will be replacing them all, or I hope I can. Access looks difficult for the ones going to the inner primary.)
 

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Go to a auto parts and get or order enough automatic trans cooler hose to replace all the oll lines.
Then install some kind of chaffing gear on the line where rubbing could happen.

Or you can replace the lines with braided type and AN type fittings.
 

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Derale 13017 Transmission/Engine Oil Hose. It's 3/8th id Goodyear hose made for pressurized hot oil lines. Much thicker wall than the universal stuff you often get from the parts store. And it bends more readily without collapsing. Then clamp it down with 7/16 fuel injection clamps.

If you cant find it locally, PM me.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Thanks to both of you. Slipping something protective over the hose at the chaffing point sounds like a good idea. And the link I put in the first post is to Derale 13017... and thanks for the detail on the clamps.

Anyone know how easy/difficult it is to replace the hoses that run to inner primary? Is some disassembling of major parts needed? This is the 84 Shovel FXWG "Custom" (that's a model-type, not customized). I guess that's 1/4 hose... do people use fuel line hosing? Like this?
 

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"Fuel" line nowadays is utter garbage. Use transmission line or ethanol-resistant fuel injection hose which resists oil nicely too. I don't even use generic "fuel" line on lawnmowers. You may be tempted to save a few bucks using it but you'll have to replace it MUCH earlier than quality hose, and an oil hose failure could be very expensive.

I use Gates or equivalent fuel injection hose for fuel and oil. Ebay sellers have better prices than most auto stores. Search "NAPA H358 Barricade Fuel Injection Hose" etc. Strongly agree on the "fuel injection clamps" which I also get from Ebay. When you can wait a few days the savings are worth it, and it pays to stock spare hose and clamps.

Gates part number for transmission cooler hose is 27056. Smaller companies likely order branded hose from major suppliers and Gates is industry standard.

BTW your local hydraulic shop is often a good source for hose and hardware. If there's one nearby I suggest a visit. The more industrial suppliers any mechanic knows the better.

As for your inner primary I and most other Shovel owners disconnect the primary from the oil vent system and service it like later primaries. Plenty of articles on the subject and perhaps a thread in these forums but I've not looked.

Opinions vary on lube so I'll avoid that discussion.

I've never changed the vent hoses on an inner primary, only eliminated them and plugged the holes with pipe plugs, but I suspect LONG needle nose pliers with a bent tip and long screwdrivers will come in very handy.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
The bottom two hoses (to and from oil cooler) look fairly easy to replace. But in prep for replacing the rest, I really want to understand how they are all routed. I have found at least 20 diagrams but none are of my bike's exact layout.

The second picture here (of the Shovel Custom) helped, and so made my own diagram and would appreciate if you guys could look it over and tell me if you see anything wrong.




Are the vent and oiler locations on the inner primary roughly accurate as I have them? Or are the locations switched? (Wish to heck I would have known I was going to do this when I had the primary cover off yesterday morning... would have looked myself, but at the time would not have known what I was looking at!)

As always, thanks for any guidance.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Use transmission line or ethanol-resistant fuel injection hose which resists oil nicely too. [...] I use Gates or equivalent fuel injection hose for fuel and oil. Ebay sellers have better prices than most auto stores. Search "NAPA H358 Barricade Fuel Injection Hose" etc.
Very valuable info.

Strongly agree on the "fuel injection clamps" which I also get from Ebay. When you can wait a few days the savings are worth it, and it pays to stock spare hose and clamps.
Agreed with all. I am all for saving money, but by shopping around for good parts, not by getting cheap parts. And I find the best prices are online so don't mind waiting. Happened to pick up 25' of the Derale 13017 from an eBay seller for $31 shipped.

As for your inner primary I and most other Shovel owners disconnect the primary from the oil vent system and service it like later primaries. Plenty of articles on the subject and perhaps a thread in these forums but I've not looked.
Man... I have been reading those articles for 24 hours now, wondering if I should go that route! :) My primary cover is no longer leaking, but I still have very slow weeping coming down the back of the inner primary (like a drop every five hours or so), so I know it's probably the oiler connection. Seems the bike would be much cleaner by sealing the primary.

And it kind of sounds easier than trying to change those hoses out anyway. I know the best way to do it is not to cut/plug the hoses with a bolt and clamp, but I won't be "tearing down the engine" to do it "the right way" as I am no mechanic.

So you think I should go this route?

Opinions vary on lube so I'll avoid that discussion.
From the gazillions of foums/articles I read, looks like Dexron III ATF is the most recommended, but I guess some people put 50 or 60w in there?

I've never changed the vent hoses on an inner primary, only eliminated them and plugged the holes with pipe plugs
... which you did by removing the primary cover and plugging the holes from the inside? How did you vent it? Drop the oiler hose from pump to vent to atmosphere under the bike?

but I suspect LONG needle nose pliers with a bent tip and long screwdrivers will come in very handy.
... not to mention being an actual mechanic or even being able to fake it well. :)

That was all very helpful, thanks so much. I am leaning more towards sealing the primary now, though I know that means keeping a real eye on it. Read about the expensive disasters if it runs low/dry.

But if the bike will be cleaner.... sounds worth keeping an eye on it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
In reading more about sealing off the primary, some ppl referred to electric vs kick start... as if the open primary was needed for kick, but if going to electric you could seal it. <?> My bike has both, kick and electric, and want to keep both functional. Matter?

Also, MOCO confirmed 2,227 Shovel FXWG's were produced in 1984. Mid year clutch change went to wet/dry.

1278 [early year] models made with dry, 949 [late year] models made with wet/dry clutches.

Mine is an early year dry clutch. I have read mixed opinions about if a sealed primary is ok for dry clutch. I am not changing the clutch out as many suggest. If the dry clutch is not a good fit for a sealed primary, I will leave it stock. Anyone have a definitive answer?
 

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Replacing the hoses is the easiest route,, getting the fitting between the pump and crankcase out is a major pita, and plugging it is equally difficult..
I just buy the hose by the 25' roll, 3/8" dual wall reinforced neoprene...and a couple boxes of clamps, it's much less expensive in bulk..using high pressure tranny hose is a waste, but if it makes you feel good use it... there is no high pressure there, thevtemp is the same as the oil temp..
If you seal the primary, you will have a leak at the support bearing there is no seal there on the dry clutch primary.mnyou can reduce the leak by using less than a pint of primary fluid..you only need enough to wet the chain, use a wet/dry clutch...
A seal can be fitted to the dry primary but it is not a job for an amateur..
Pay attention to where the hoses connect and how they are ran..
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Replacing the hoses is the easiest route,, getting the fitting between the pump and crankcase out is a major pita, and plugging it is equally difficult..
Thanks Terry. Appreciate that.

I just buy the hose by the 25' roll, 3/8" dual wall reinforced neoprene...and a couple boxes of clamps, it's much less expensive in bulk..using high pressure tranny hose is a waste, but if it makes you feel good use it... there is no high pressure there, thevtemp is the same as the oil temp..
I ordered 25' Derale from eBay and the box said Derale but inside was Continental Contitech stamped hose... could see it is reinforced, supple black, ID 3/8, OD 7/16ths... flexible and looked like any other transmission hose, but wasn't sure if I should use it, as I am not even sure it IS transmission hose. EDIT: for future readers, Derale hose is made by the 3rd party Continental Contitech, a HQ manufacturer of hose including industrial hose... so don't think you got the wrong hose when you see it is stamped as CC and not Derale.


If you seal the primary, you will have a leak at the support bearing there is no seal there on the dry clutch primary. [...]
Thanks so much for this, I will def not seal the primary since I am not up for a big job sealing it better, or even changing out the clutch plates. (Could probably change the clutch plates but don't want to spend unnecessary cash right now anyway.)

Pay attention to where the hoses connect and how they are ran..
I hear that. One hose at a time... but any tricks or hints on how to reach those running to inner primary?
 

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The "tricks" for reaching buried hoses and clamps vary. If the bike still has the crimped Oetiker clamps instead of worm-drive clamps it could be a b1tch to get them off.

Some generic clamp tricks:
Pry the hose and clamp off the hose barb with a wide flat screwdriver etc. Only works on clamps which ain't super tight.

Forceps and long, bent tip needle nose pliers are handy.

Nut drivers work very well on worm drive hose clamps. If you can't pry off an installed hose, you may be able to rotate the clamp and hose into position to get a nut driver on it.

If you think attacking from the bottom will help, you can drain the fuel then lower the motorcycle on its side using an engine hoist or whatever. No need for the bike to kiss the ground, just tip it over enough for access.
 

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When your going to replace the hose, you can also split the old one with a knife or razor to assist removal from the fitting. Screws up the hose pretty good, but if you're not going to reuse it....
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
The "tricks" for reaching buried hoses and clamps vary. If the bike still has the crimped Oetiker clamps instead of worm-drive clamps it could be a b1tch to get them off.
Has worm drive... though none of the nuts/heads are rolled around facing in a convenient direction.

Nut drivers work very well on worm drive hose clamps. If you can't pry off an installed hose, you may be able to rotate the clamp and hose into position to get a nut driver on it.
Excellent. Thank you.

If you think attacking from the bottom will help, you can drain the fuel then lower the motorcycle on its side using an engine hoist or whatever. No need for the bike to kiss the ground, just tip it over enough for access.
I know this sounds ridiculous but if I could I would have a garage with a pit AND hoist. Everything is so much easier when it's convenient! In fact my ideal house would have an entire bottom floor that was all garage. A garage can never be big enough! Esp if you also like to keep all your vehicles in there and still have room for a work bench, tools etc. Garage space is underrated in house design!

All to say... that was a great idea but I am without a hoist. However I'll work it out.

When your going to replace the hose, you can also split the old one with a knife or razor to assist removal from the fitting. Screws up the hose pretty good, but if you're not going to reuse it....
Def not re-using, so good idea. :)

Re-ordered new Derale hose which should be here Monday. So... just tapping my foot until then.

Thanks again for all the support. Have a great night, all.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Main Hoses Changed

Hey Guys,

Hose came Friday so did the job yesterday. Took me 10hrs to change the 5 main hoses (to and from cooler, pump, filter and tank). Old hoses were hard to remove and some had those original Oetiker crimps Casement warned about. Most of the time was about trying to get to hose barbs... and I don't know if all FXWGs are this way, but the gravity feed barb on the bottom of the oil tank is impossible to reach from the side it's on, b/c a welded bracket for connecting the battery tray makes it inaccessible. And cannot remove the oil tank due to 'leg brackets' hanging off it that prevent it from sliding out either side of the bike. AND that was one of the hoses with an Oetiker clamp! (But I did eventually manage changing that hose by taking off the bolts to the tank so I could wiggle it around to gain access and did various parts of the job from either side.)

But wanted to ask.... the two hose barbs on the pump are so close the Derale hose would fit side-by-side, but not two clamps too. So I had to stagger the clamps but am not sure the one further back is doing any good as I can't remember how long the barbs are. Does it look ok? There is no way to put it up where it belongs. (The old hose I took off was smaller OD.)



Also, the clamp that is up close to the pump where it belongs is pushing oil to the cooler, but the one with the clamp further back is receiving gravity fed from oil tank. That's why I picked that line to put the clamp in a less desirable location.

The good news is, at least this is a place I can keep an eye on it.

I did not change the hoses going to primary. Ran out of steam for one day...
 

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The outside clamp is NOT on the barb. You can tell where the barb ends where you have the clamp tightened.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
The outside clamp is NOT on the barb. You can tell where the barb ends where you have the clamp tightened.
But what can I do when they won't fit side-by-side? I will go out there and try tightening the other one to make more room and see if I can use pliers to force the outside clamp in next to it, but I spent a very long time on this dilemma yesterday trying to do this same thing. However I was already quite tired then, so I will go try again now...



OK. Was a little tired by then I guess! :)

Which I meant to ask... how much should I tighten the fuel clamps down? I am afraid of ruining the hose... or should I tighten until it becomes a struggle to turn the screw any more??

PS I know my clamps are facing in different directions and don't look nice... finishing touches come with experience which I don't have yet. :)
 

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Looks great just like you've got it. Run with it, although I'd take the outside one and move it down 180* from the inside one.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Looks great just like you've got it. Run with it, although I'd take the outside one and move it down 180* from the inside one.
Yeah, I thought of that too. :)

But again, how tight should I make these clamps?? Should I turn them until I can't turn it anymore? Or... ?? (...don't mean just these, but all the clamps on all the barbs..)
 

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Tighten it until it starts to bite into the rubber a little. That should be sufficient.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Many thanks.

Next dilemma are hoses going to primary. I don't know if I should start a new thread for that, but it's all been discussed so much (whether to seal primary or not, etc) I think I'll continue in this thread just to keep the continuity, and to not 'take over the forum' by posting yet another thread. Plus I think I already have the most important facts (from everything I read), but anyone pls correct anything that is wrong:

1. The primary on this bike is not sealed (don't mean the gasket). So if you are going to close it off, use very little oil b/c it's just for the chain anyway, and will leak out the seal if you don't.

2. A true "dry clutch" is completely sealed in its own housing, so even though my bike is a 'dry' clutch, it is not a true dry clutch and the primary is semi-wet from the chain being oiled. Even so, this is another reason to use very little oil, filling to just below bottom of clutch basket.

3. Some people who close off the primary with a "dry clutch" (like mine) end up with problems and need to switch clutch plates to wet/dry, though from what I gather it's probably (in most cases) b/c they add too much oil and while a little spitting from the chain is ok, you don't want stock clutch plates in any kind of bath.

4. I say that b/c there are as many stories of people with 'dry clutch' that close off the primary and never have a problem with the stock plates. They all seem to make the point to use the correct amount of oil, which is just a few ounces.

I would not consider this if I could change out the oil lines to primary without removing the inner primary. But I don't want to chance screwing up something major to do something minor like change hoses. Plus I would need a few tools that would be a couple hundred bucks, and I'd have to bother a neighbor to help me break the nut loose on the main shaft.

The return hose going from primary to pump is not the problem, as at least both ends are accessible. The vent line to primary isn't a problem as it's not moving liquid, so I don't even care about replacing that if it's a pain... and it is since I can't see where it goes. But the 1/4" oiler line from top of pump to inner primary is The Problem... b/c I literally cannot even SEE where it meets the inner primary.

So the advantage to closing off the primary is this: The oiler line does not need to be replaced or blocked, but from the many people who have done this, they take the end off the pump and run the line under the bike to act as a vent. That solves ALL my problems. B/c that's easy to do.

Then I can remove the return line from the pump, and at the rear of the inner primary, and block the stub of hose I would leave there with a bolt and clamp.

And the existing vent hose can actually even be left in place... only reason ppl take it out is to remove the tee and make for a cleaner look... they cut it shorter, bolt/clamp it, and hide it in back of the inner.

All of that sounds doable, whereas trying to change the hoses out without removing the inner does not.

Comments? Feedback?
 
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