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Discussion Starter #1
Read the other day, either in another technical thread or in a mag technical article, that "backing off of the specified lifter preload is recommended to help eliminate valve trane noise..." Anybody else heard this advice? It went on to say, (with regard to flats / TPI, etc.), that you should shoot for .075 - .080 preload as opposed to the usual .100. Can't believe that .020 - .025 less preload could help minimize noise. Obviously lifter gets to pump up more, maybe more cushion?

Also, has anyone run across the "condensed version" of mysterious "v-twin noises" and their sources and how to eliminate or prevent them? Seems like by now someone should have come out with a "Tips" manual that provides advice to help keep the noises to a minimum. Particularly during a build, cam change, etc...

Thoughts?

DLR
 

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The Twinkie motor can and will expand or grow up to .100 in the hoter climates, although .060 or so growth is in the normal expansion rate it can grow more so to set the lifters at a point that it has no more travel to take up the lash seems a little stupid to me....:whatever:
There are a few things that can be done with making an engine quiter as you build it and I have shared SOME of those things here on the Forum....but....there are more that I won't share because this is what seperates me from the average builder. I don't say this to be mean because I share more than most builders here but you all have to relize how many times I have had members call me to say they want me to build their bikes so I spend countless hours talking to them, making up written estimates, making a list of parts only for them to go some other builder with the package I prepared. Well believe me this gets old so I keep to my self the things that trully make the difference in building for a optium performer that is also quiet. So all of you who have called me and did this misjustice enjoy knowing that there is more that you could have had....:roflback: Just to let you all know this has happened to me at least 12 times, I'm a slow learner I guess or I just take people for their word. I have yet get some one from this Forum to let me build their bike even if they only live 30 miles away.
 

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MarkCrain said:
Where is your shop? I have built my own motor but need to get it tuned. Interested?
Mark,
I do this as a hobby again, I make my living teaching HighPerformance and Certifing Techs on the DynoJet for the last three years. But yes I'm interested to do your tune up...I in the South Orlando area on South Orange Blossem Trail.
What is in your build? EFI or Carb?
PM me for a number to call.
Doc
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Know What "CTE" Is HDMD88?

hdmd88 said:
The Twinkie motor can and will expand or grow up to .100 in the hoter climates, although .060 or so growth is in the normal expansion rate it can grow more so to set the lifters at a point that it has no more travel to take up the lash seems a little stupid to me....:whatever:
There are a few things that can be done with making an engine quiter as you build it and I have shared SOME of those things here on the Forum....but....there are more that I won't share because this is what seperates me from the average builder. I don't say this to be mean because I share more than most builders here but you all have to relize how many times I have had members call me to say they want me to build their bikes so I spend countless hours talking to them, making up written estimates, making a list of parts only for them to go some other builder with the package I prepared. Well believe me this gets old so I keep to my self the things that trully make the difference in building for a optium performer that is also quiet. So all of you who have called me and did this misjustice enjoy knowing that there is more that you could have had....:roflback: Just to let you all know this has happened to me at least 12 times, I'm a slow learner I guess or I just take people for their word. I have yet get some one from this Forum to let me build their bike even if they only live 30 miles away.
If all things expand or grow, relative, as heat increases, (***SEE Co-efficient of Thermal Expansion***), wouldn't tolerances open up and close up proportionately, relative to the heat they see? Would push rods grow or shrink as they got hotter? Lifters? .060-.100 seems like a lot of change @ temps. considered to be in the normal op range, even @ elevated temps..

Sounds like you're bitter over having attempted to have made a difference by providing advice to those in need of it. I thought that was what this forum was all about. That's why I joined. I too as an FAA rep / mechanic and machinist have often given "free" advice to folks who asked for it, only for them to take their business elsewhere. It's an unfortunate "by-product" of trying to help others in need. You teach, huh? Ever thought about pulling over at 38k feet to throw the hood to see what's wrong while 450 passengers wait to see whether they live or die? Figure out what you're doing wrong and fix it. Your business will increase. Thanks for your valued input...
DLR
 

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DLRVelocity1 said:
If all things expand or grow, relative, as heat increases, (***SEE Co-efficient of Thermal Expansion***), wouldn't tolerances open up and close up proportionately, relative to the heat they see? Would push rods grow or shrink as they got hotter? Lifters? .060-.100 seems like a lot of change @ temps. considered to be in the normal op range, even @ elevated temps..

Sounds like you're bitter over having attempted to have made a difference by providing advice to those in need of it. I thought that was what this forum was all about. That's why I joined. I too as an FAA rep / mechanic and machinist have often given "free" advice to folks who asked for it, only for them to take their business elsewhere. It's an unfortunate "by-product" of trying to help others in need. You teach, huh? Ever thought about pulling over at 38k feet to throw the hood to see what's wrong while 450 passengers wait to see whether they live or die? Figure out what you're doing wrong and fix it. Your business will increase. Thanks for your valued input...
DLR
If your saying I don't do enough for this forum by giving the information I have gathered in the last 36 years and give it out for free to those in need then all I have to say to you is you'll never be satisfied with this forum. Some people are grateful for the help I provide, I should have known some one would take what I said and twist it around and say that I am a selfish man and for me to fix the problem. Sorry for taking the time to comment on your post, it won't happen again.
 

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DLRVelocity1 said:
If all things expand or grow, relative, as heat increases, (***SEE Co-efficient of Thermal Expansion***), wouldn't tolerances open up and close up proportionately, relative to the heat they see? Would push rods grow or shrink as they got hotter? Lifters? .060-.100 seems like a lot of change @ temps. considered to be in the normal op range, even @ elevated temps..

Sounds like you're bitter over having attempted to have made a difference by providing advice to those in need of it. I thought that was what this forum was all about. That's why I joined. I too as an FAA rep / mechanic and machinist have often given "free" advice to folks who asked for it, only for them to take their business elsewhere. It's an unfortunate "by-product" of trying to help others in need. You teach, huh? Ever thought about pulling over at 38k feet to throw the hood to see what's wrong while 450 passengers wait to see whether they live or die? Figure out what you're doing wrong and fix it. Your business will increase. Thanks for your valued input...
DLR

It would be better for all here if you didn't come in here with the attitude. There are better way's to discuss things.

Thanks for all you do Doc,

Now about that stuff you have been hanging onto:whisper:
 

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Do an advanced search to call up all the posts by hdmd88 and then share with us your corrected opinion. Doc has helped more people on this forum, via email and over the phone than any one that I can think of.
 

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Duoglide_62 said:
Do an advanced search to call up all the posts by hdmd88 and then share with us your corrected opinion. Doc has helped more people on this forum, via email and over the phone than any one that I can think of.
Agreed. He has shared more USEFUL information arguably than any other member IMHO.
 

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In response to the original question:
There is always a lot of talk about the growth of the cylinders although I don't recall seeing hard test data other than assumptions based on experience. How would you quantify that growth accuratley?
You do pose an interesting question regarding the growth of the other components that I believe should not be discounted either. Many of the builds use aluminum adjustable pushrods that have the same coefficient of expansion as the cylinders. The oil temp, granted, is not nearly as hot as cylinder or cylinder head temps. So there are a lot of unknowns in my mind and being in the enginering field I need test data to be convinced of facts. Nontheless I can listen to assumptions and real world experiences to help in the "critical thinking" process. I have adjusted the lifters both sides of center and like solids just as tests to eliminate noise and none of the experiments have helped. What has helped is using conventional rockers, only the necessary valve spring pressure, and cams with sensible lift rates. Also all clearances and possible interferance points are carefully checked. When I do top ends I check the blow off pressure of the piston jet oilers, as sometimes they leak at too low of a pressure and I replace them (per EdE). All metal to metal oil pressure feed ports I seal with Hylomar (cam plate). I would not expect anybody to copy me or believe me but this has works for me.

All of these forums supply us with a glut of information and it is our responsibility to use the critical thinking process to sieve all that data down as best we can and form our own opinions. Many of us give our time for free, as I do, because I enjoy that. It is by choice. I don't think it is right or fair to haze anybody that gives up their knowledge and trys to help others in any field. There are lots of people that disagree with the opinions stated, that is a given, but it is about respect and consideration of others.

So only thing I can say in summary is Peace
 

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Discussion Starter #11
No offense intended.. Making a Point only

Doc,

Granted I'm the new guy. You're obviously one of the corner stones here on this site... I picked a losing battle. I can see that you know your stuff, you can be proud of that. I can see that you have offered others advice. I've followed quite a few of your posts recent and past. I'm all about learning anything I can, especially if it's from a good source. Apparently both you and I don't tolerate criticism well, but we have to deal with that.

I don't think I twisted anything up. That's a cop out on your part. I came here for the wealth of knowledge that can be shared, mutually. It's satisfying to me to know when I've helped someone out from something I learned, sometimes at my own personal expense and hard knocks, but that's me. Not unlike you, I've been at it for 30+ years also.

Put yourself in my place. I asked for help in my initial post and I got a rant about all the rough spots in your life/career and all the "no good folks" on this forum and others, who you've spent "Countless hours talking to..." Maybe you're having a bad day? No problem. We all do.

I paid my membership dues to be a participating member of these forums, learning from and offering help where I can. Good discussion and banter makes us all better.

Stop replying to my posts..? That's your choice. Doubt it'll make a difference. I think you're over reacting. We've talked before. Opinions and help and advice is where I come from.

My apologies for ruffling feathers here. Doc, you've got good Bros who jumped in and defended you. Speaks for itself.

No regrets with no attitude. Just willing to tell it like it is.

DLR
 

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DLRVelocity1 said:
Doc,

Granted I'm the new guy. You're obviously one of the corner stones here on this site... I picked a losing battle. I can see that you know your stuff, you can be proud of that. I can see that you have offered others advice. I've followed quite a few of your posts recent and past. I'm all about learning anything I can, especially if it's from a good source. Apparently both you and I don't tolerate criticism well, but we have to deal with that.

I don't think I twisted anything up. That's a cop out on your part. I came here for the wealth of knowledge that can be shared, mutually. It's satisfying to me to know when I've helped someone out from something I learned, sometimes at my own personal expense and hard knocks, but that's me. Not unlike you, I've been at it for 30+ years also.

Put yourself in my place. I asked for help in my initial post and I got a rant about all the rough spots in your life/career and all the "no good folks" on this forum and others, who you've spent "Countless hours talking to..." Maybe you're having a bad day? No problem. We all do.

I paid my membership dues to be a participating member of these forums, learning from and offering help where I can. Good discussion and banter makes us all better.

Stop replying to my posts..? That's your choice. Doubt it'll make a difference. I think you're over reacting. We've talked before. Opinions and help and advice is where I come from.

My apologies for ruffling feathers here. Doc, you've got good Bros who jumped in and defended you. Speaks for itself.

No regrets with no attitude. Just willing to tell it like it is.

DLR
First off I did answer your question!!
Second of all it seems as if its ok for you to tell it like it is but you have a problem when I tell it like it is.
No, I'm not having a bad day....not till I got involved with you that is.
You don't know me well enough to analyze me so please don't tell me how I am or what I have to do to get along in this world.
Over reacting...maybe but then again thats your opinion.
 

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Gentlemen...... Hydrolyic lifters at thirty paces. Turn, aim....... SQUIRT!!!!! :gun:

Doc, thanks for all your advice and suggestions you've sent me in the past. :thanks:

Deep breath fellas, we're all on the same team in here. Motorcyclists!! Tomorrow is another day.

Peace out y'all. :chopper:
 

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hdmd88 said:
Mark,
I do this as a hobby again, I make my living teaching HighPerformance and Certifing Techs on the DynoJet for the last three years. But yes I'm interested to do your tune up...I in the South Orlando area on South Orange Blossem Trail.
What is in your build? EFI or Carb?
PM me for a number to call.
Doc
Doc,
I got the S&S 116" kit, G carb with thunderjet, ist ign. still sitting in the box but be on the bike soon, Dyna TC88 at the moment, RB racing exhaust on a standard bagger. Feels like I'm forgeting something.
MSC
 

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DLRVelocity1 said:
Read the other day, either in another technical thread or in a mag technical article, that "backing off of the specified lifter preload is recommended to help eliminate valve trane noise..." Anybody else heard this advice? It went on to say, (with regard to flats / TPI, etc.), that you should shoot for .075 - .080 preload as opposed to the usual .100. Can't believe that .020 - .025 less preload could help minimize noise. Obviously lifter gets to pump up more, maybe more cushion?


Thoughts?

DLR
i've gone the other way on my evo, setting the pre-load to .120 to quiet a noisy front exhaust lifter. that was 24000 mi. ago,and no, i didn't read it in a" magazine article" so it probably is wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Evo Preload Made a Difference

Spgtti,
Interesting how adjusting up the front exhaust valve lifter preload to .120 changed or eliminated the noise you had. Sounds like there's possibly a "sweet spot" that exists in lifter preload adjustment. Just have to find out what setting works best for our individual situation. Guess the book is a good baseline, then tweak from there for quietest operation.
Thanks,
DLR
 
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