V-Twin Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
368 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Just curious because CARB is threatening us with smog tests. I know cam timing would have more to do with the motor passing or not but it would be a real bummer to have opened up the heads and have to buy stock ones and put them on to pass the test.

Thoughts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,765 Posts
I have lived here in So Cal my whole life. If I worried about CARB looking under my hood or at my bike during that time life would have just not been worth living. I do what the hell I want and don't even think about it. I haven't had any problems yet. I don't forsee any.:sofa:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,765 Posts
I just saw you are in Bakersfield, Ca. I don't think they will be smogging any bikes out your way for many years to come. Quit lettin the man get you down.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
21,644 Posts
CA:hystria:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
368 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
04GLIDE said:
I just saw you are in Bakersfield, Ca. I don't think they will be smogging any bikes out your way for many years to come. Quit lettin the man get you down.
We have some of the worst air quality in the state. We'll be in any program that comes down the road.

And for those outside the state, the Gov rides so he's been pretty good for us. When he goes out I'll bet the stuff he has done for us (apes are finally ok after a long absense and holding off the CARB) will go by the way. Remember, we're the bad guys.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
45 Posts
Interesting question Greg. I don't know the specific answer but I have some info on the subject. Under CARB rules a dealer can install some cams (ie:203,204,etc) and can instal a Stage I or II download and can even install SE pipes on non CAT exhaust. BUT they cannot install SE heads.From that I assume heads could/will effect a smog check later down the road? Bakersfield or San Diego or ??? we need to get ready cause it's comming, in some form, soon. Judges have ruled that the officer does not need a decibel gun to tell if your bike is to loud and in some cities ,when you get a non-DOT helmet cite the officer may keep your helmet for evidence! Smog checks and inspections will make some "Green" activist pee himself and the state accountants have more money to squander. As Yogi would say "the future don't look as good as it uste to" Calif is way rediculous.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,114 Posts
The more air flow through the motor the more emissions are present. This is how Harley meets the EPA standards. By choking of the intake and the exhaust there is less air traveling through the motor, Harley motors are 78% efficient out of the box. Install an air filter kit and a set of pipes your going to pump more air and usually gain 10 to 12 ponies. Heads will make the motor even flow more air and again, more air, constitutes more emissions. Will it pass in Calif. .... probably not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
CARB and Ported Heads - Here is my take..

It would appear to me that if the State puts smog regulations on motorcycles, they would have to grandfather in us peeps who already have bikes on the road. At least, thats what they pretty much did with cars. Thats pretty much why I bought a 20005 model. Hell, at least I think I will be able to modify it for the rest of my life and not have to worry about what is legal and what is not.

As far as your question regarding will ported heads pass Smog tests. I think the real question is this. How rich your engine is set up to run? Right now, this state likes to check engine emissions at idle and at 2500 rpm for automobiles. If it were the same for motorcycles, then might be some advice for you.

If the state were to measure motorcycles the same way as cars, then you could in fact dial in your engine to perform at idle and at 2500 RPM with an AFR of 14.7:1, or preferably a little leaner. That would pretty much assure your self that you would pass emission testing.

Engine performance would definatly suffer in the two noted rpm areas no doubt. And, lets not forget, a leaner running runs much hotter. Thats the problem with us air cooled types. We have heard complaint after complaint from many people outside of CA that are buying the new motorcycles with the closed loop fuel delivery systems, right? Simple case in point is this. The new bikes are set up to run leaner to meet new emission standards. Therefore they will run hotter. It seems to me, that the rest of the lower 48 states are just beginning to see the issues we left coasters have been facing for a while now.

To me, one of the other byproducts of an air cooled engine that is set lean is it really doesn't perform as well with an AFR of 14.7:1. And by perform well, I don't necessarly mean run faster on the street. I mean drivability over the entire rpm range and comfort with regards to how much heat is being generated from the engine. Especially when you get stuck in traffic when its hot out. To me, these HD motors run just fine, but when they heat up, they never really seem to recover until you shut them down and let them cool off.

The performance build in my bike seems to like to run at or around 13.5:1 AFR over pretty much of the RPM range except idle where I have it set to run slightly richer (about 12.5:1 AFR) and above 3,000rpm under full load, its set to run slightly leaner.

For me, I have one of them programmable fuel delivery systems that can be dialed in however I want it to. Best of all, when I get home from a ride, I can plug it into my home computer and see how rich or lean it ran over the entire ride because it has Wide Band Exhaust O2 WEGO) sensors in it. As far as I know, the WEGO does not tell the computer to make it run at 14.7:1, it just reports what ratio the exhast actually is

If the bike were to be smogged, then I would simply put the stock exhaust system back on it and readadjust the fuel delivery system to operate at 14.7:1 or even a little leaner to make sure the engine would pass the test. The ported heads are stock castings and cams are, well.. ahh hmmm.. definately not stock and then don't sound like they are stock either.

If CARB is gonna measure (smog check) our bikes, then the bottom line is this. Get an adjustable/programmable fuel delivery computer that can meet the state requirements when it has to. Or else leave it stock. Or, lets not forget, many of the aftermarket performance companies for cars already make CARB compliant parts. And Yes, this includes super chargers, headers, open air intakes, heads, programmable fuel controllers.

To me, if we look at this on a positive note, this CARB thing will rteally push the technology envolope. Some people beg to differ I am sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,064 Posts
In Ca, when they do a smog test on cars, they have to allow for a lot of leeway. They can't expect a vehicle to have brand new standards on a 10 yr old car. A car with what looks like original equiptment will usually pas, unless it is smoking or chugging. If your engine has a good spark and good plugs, it will usually pass. If you have a carb, they might try to lean it down, I sincerley doubt that they will try to load another map. They may not like the map you are running, so you can always go back to one that is legal or remove your pcIII.

Any well running engine will pass smog in ca now, unless it is very radical. If you have a long duration cam with a .600 lift, you might have a problem. There is no way that they can tell that you have ported stock heads, unless you tell them. As long as your crankcase vent is going into an enclosed area for reburning and the rest of you equipment is there, they will pass you.

If your bike came with Cat muffs, you have to have them on there, and they have to look like they have not been modified. I hope that you have kept your old ones, HD charges a lot for replacements.
 

·
Infidel
Joined
·
1,428 Posts
Could be as easy as uploading a neutered "smog" map into your ECU via a SERT. Get home, upload your regular "good" map and away you go until next year! I wonder if they would figure out why all the bikes were wheezing, coughing, and spitting when they came in for their annual anal probing?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
368 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Thanks all for your thoughts...

The 08's are pretty hard to tune right now. Power Commander doesn't have their unit ready yet (and there is some question if they will due to some tricks H-D had added to the ECU for 08) and the SERT is due mid September. I held my nose and paid for the Stage I flash (and SE AC) in hopes of gaining some heat relief. It sure runs stronger than it did before but I don't think it's much cooler.

I'm in a holding pattern waiting for the aftermarket to catch up. On my '00 Dyna I was happy with rejetting and SE Slip-ons. Fuel injection might be better in the long run but it sure is a PITA right now. I'm also curious how H-D is going to handle the new SERT package. If they make it wide open to ANY change I think they are opening themselves up to EPA/CARB scrutiny and possible fines. I have my fingers crossed and hope they aren't going to limit adjustments to +/- 5% or some such other stupidity.

Why did I have to become one of the BETA testers :unsure:

Thanks again,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
Gerg

Why did I have to become one of the BETA testers :unsure:

Thats about right.. you are pretty much a beta tester. I wouldn't be surprised if you would only be able to purchase a fuel manager that has limited capabilities. From what I am hearing, and as much as I hate to say this, it sounds like the mother ship has been put on notice by the Fed's. It looks like the ability to purchase an air cooled engine in the not to distant future may be a thing of the past. Hell, for example, the local HD shops can sell after market mufflers, but they are not allowed to install them simply because they do not have catalytic convertor's in them.

I am hoping that one day soon, the after market will design and sell mufflers with performance Cats in them that are CARB compliant.

Roadie
Ventura CA.:xhere:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,566 Posts
Gerg said:
Just curious because CARB is threatening us with smog tests. I know cam timing would have more to do with the motor passing or not but it would be a real bummer to have opened up the heads and have to buy stock ones and put them on to pass the test.

Thoughts?
The R&R heads have passed CARB with flying colors with very low hydrocarbon levels. Last year when the EPA level was 300 p.p.m. the R&R 155" engine was tested in southern Cal. at 40 p.p.m.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,064 Posts
Roadie said:
Why did I have to become one of the BETA testers :unsure:

Thats about right.. you are pretty much a beta tester. I wouldn't be surprised if you would only be able to purchase a fuel manager that has limited capabilities. From what I am hearing, and as much as I hate to say this, it sounds like the mother ship has been put on notice by the Fed's. It looks like the ability to purchase an air cooled engine in the not to distant future may be a thing of the past. Hell, for example, the local HD shops can sell after market mufflers, but they are not allowed to install them simply because they do not have catalytic convertor's in them.

I am hoping that one day soon, the after market will design and sell mufflers with performance Cats in them that are CARB compliant.

Roadie
Ventura CA.:xhere:
HD makes some compliant performance cat muffs, they are expensive. Buy a 49 state bike used, and if it has more than 7500mi, Ca has to accept it as long as it has the smog equipment that came on it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
108 Posts
Your time is coming!

berserker said:
CA:hystria:
:whistle: Everyone outside of California that thinks this won't be happening to them soon...watch your back!:roflback:

And we don't have mandatory safety inspections like some of you do! There are a lot of changes happening in states other than California regarding exhausts and such. Things will be much different in the not so distant year of 2010 regarding sound and smog requirements. Heck, even the 07's and 08's already don't respond much to air filter and pipe changes due to how the ECM works from what I have read.


Read it and weep; http://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/casesett/dynojet.htm
This is where the PC "EX" version came from.

And with the MoCo involved with things like this; http://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/casesett/harleyd.htm
you can expect to see your SERT go the same route very soon.

They all know about these devices and the MoCo has a direct link to the SERT making it important for HD to distance itself from it very soon! I am surprised that the MoCo is letting any dealer install a SERT anyway at this point since they won't install non-EPA compliant parts anymore. I guess if the SERT was nuetered like the SE heads and pipes are, and like the PC3 EX, then it wouldn't be a problem. I would expect to see one of the next big fines from CARB go to the MoCo themselves for selling the SERT. And they are capable of paying A LOT more than Dynotech Research!

I would imagine though that even here in California, we won't have to smog check our bikes until the model production year after a smog check law is passed, though CARB does have numbers they could use now in their Executive Orders when they approve a bike/engine for sale in California already.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,064 Posts
Gulfstream said:
Could be as easy as uploading a neutered "smog" map into your ECU via a SERT. Get home, upload your regular "good" map and away you go until next year! I wonder if they would figure out why all the bikes were wheezing, coughing, and spitting when they came in for their annual anal probing?
Most of our cars were spitting and barely running when we came in. The tuning they used to do to get past the requirements had to be redone, just to run a 60's car or one that was somewhat worn.

These days we just unplug or replace the fuel injection module helper, get 'er passed and go back to to the way we were.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
108 Posts
EPA and CARB certification #s please...

KingofCubes said:
The R&R heads have passed CARB with flying colors with very low hydrocarbon levels. Last year when the EPA level was 300 p.p.m. the R&R 155" engine was tested in southern Cal. at 40 p.p.m.
Randy,

I cant find where the R&R heads passed CARB with flying colors. Can you please state the CARB Executive Order # for them?

I looked here; http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/amquery.php
which is where these items are usually listed but could not find anything other than Edelbrock, Rev Tech and Harley and these were all for pre year 2003 engine applications.

Also, I can believe that the R&R 155" engine may certify with the EPA (like the S&S X-Wedge did) but that is due to the sum of all the parts included in that engine, not just the heads, correct? S&S has many non-standard parts on that X-Wedge to make it work and be EPA compliant also. I think that S&S only gets like high 90's HP and 115lbs. TQ out of a 117" motor also in order to make that EPA compliance. What are the numbers on an R&R 155"?

I haven't seen that R&R cylinder heads are independently certified by either CARB or the EPA to be used as stand-alone items in a compliant build. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,037 Posts
SS wedge

Still pretty good numbers and I commend them a small company for making the effort to actually have a really new design. HD should look to them and say Gee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,064 Posts
Boomshaw said:
Randy,

I cant find where the R&R heads passed CARB with flying colors. Can you please state the CARB Executive Order # for them?

I looked here; http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/amquery.php
which is where these items are usually listed but could not find anything other than Edelbrock, Rev Tech and Harley and these were all for pre year 2003 engine applications.

Also, I can believe that the R&R 155" engine may certify with the EPA (like the S&S X-Wedge did) but that is due to the sum of all the parts included in that engine, not just the heads, correct? S&S has many non-standard parts on that X-Wedge to make it work and be EPA compliant also. I think that S&S only gets like high 90's HP and 115lbs. TQ out of a 117" motor also in order to make that EPA compliance. What are the numbers on an R&R 155"?

I haven't seen that R&R cylinder heads are independently certified by either CARB or the EPA to be used as stand-alone items in a compliant build. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
The S&S wedge motor is supposed to get 130hp in it's epa form. That could be at the crankshaft, but the epa verification is for the whole drivetrain, down to the gearing and the size of the rear wheel. Carb is not ready to verify this yet.

It is a step in the right direction that the EPA has OKed an aftermarket combo. This allows the small manufacturers a platform that wasn't there before. S&S won't just sell to anyone.This hurts many small one off builders. The law should be changed so that ALL can benifit from this decision, even the home builder.

CARB is not ready to allow this. This creates a problem with any potential builder in Ca. This is restraint of trade, interferring with people's right to make a living. Ca has put undo hardship on small builders. The costs just get passed on to the consumer by the big companies, it is the small ones that suffer.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top