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Screamin' Eagle
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39 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
After 15 years of being off a Harley, this is the summer I got back on a bike ('04 FXDI). Now that its getting thinking about getting cold in Minnesota, I am starting to plan my engine build. Here is what is already done:

SE Stage I
V&H short shots
SE race tuned (done at a shop with experience - St Paul Harley)

I am happy with the current performance of my bike. When I bought it, it had the stage I and pipes but no tune. The SERT made a very noticeable difference. I have decided want/need more.

I am planning, over the winter, to do at least the SE 95" Stage II with the SE-203 cams. I am wondering if there is any other kit I should put into the bike that is good price/performance. Some of the considerations would be to add the SE HTCC heads, though this is another $800 for about 10 more hp/tq. I am mixed as to wether this would be worth it or not. Should I port my existing heads instead. Is there anything else that I should consider putting into my build kit while my bike is in the shop?

I primarily use the bike for day/weekend touring with the wife. I prefer low/mid performance based on the type of driving. I promised the wife I wouldn't get back into drag racing so... Where should I stop?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

- Eric
 

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Premium Member
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The htcc heads have been very good for our business, we fix a lot of them. The dead spots on the pistons are cured by welding and returning them to standard TC shape. The miss matched choke points an low velocity are also restored by welding and cnc porting. We would recommend that you spend the 800 dollars on your existing heads that will run 20-30 degrees cooler and give you smoother, easier starting, and better linear power. Come down to Des Moines and ride one of these and we'll put a smile on your face. Our stage 2-1/2 will yield 105-108 torque and hp. Stage 4 will give you pretty much the same numbers but will rev 2-4 seconds quicker.
 

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IronButt
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6,364 Posts
I agree the HTCC packages keep us busy as well. Keep it simple, port the heads, add a mild cam keep compression in the high 9 range. GO out and ride.

Always have a budget in mind for your kit.
 

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4,508 Posts
Engine combo.

We prefer to use the exiting castings, but we certainly have seen good numbers on re-worked HTCC heads.
Our most popular build is your heads re-worked for high velocity, but still allowing very good volume, bore/hone your existing "seasoned" cylinders, bore your Delphi to 46.5 mm(we manufacture our own throttle plates in house) and provide a Bob Wood # 6 bolt-in cam set. It will also require a performance clutch spring. With this set-up, fuel economy goes up, engine heat comes down, and from off idle to about 5500-5700 it'll run like a scalded dog, but have the manners of a stock bike. Have clients with these builds out there approaching 90,000 miles.
They come back in for oil changes, tires, and to thank us.
Scott
 

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KingofCubes said:
The htcc heads have been very good for our business, we fix a lot of them. The dead spots on the pistons are cured by welding and returning them to standard TC shape. The miss matched choke points an low velocity are also restored by welding and cnc porting. We would recommend that you spend the 800 dollars on your existing heads that will run 20-30 degrees cooler and give you smoother, easier starting, and better linear power. Come down to Des Moines and ride one of these and we'll put a smile on your face. Our stage 2-1/2 will yield 105-108 torque and hp. Stage 4 will give you pretty much the same numbers but will rev 2-4 seconds quicker.
I need some clarification... I'm entertaining the idea of building my 88 up also. Can you explain your statement...."Stage 4 will give you pretty much the same #'s but will rev 2-4 seconds quicker".....
 

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IronButt
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6,364 Posts
SpeedGlide said:
I need some clarification... I'm entertaining the idea of building my 88 up also. Can you explain your statement...."Stage 4 will give you pretty much the same #'s but will rev 2-4 seconds quicker".....

First off Speed you have got some of the best goose hunting around!! And a stage 4 head that Hyper is speaking of is a head that is welded up on both intkae and ex side and then CNC ported. For the money you are very close to what a new cast head would cost. We use both the welded head and the cast head from R&R. The cast head is one of the best heads for the street engines that you can get.

Maybe a few of the guys that have the cast head on there bike will post. We have several 98 inch kits that make over 120 hp with a 615 cam. The cast head will make more power and rev even faster than the stage 4 head!!
 

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You don't always have to do a $800 job on the heads, many times $400-$600 will get what YOU might need. It is all subjective - what do you expect to get out of your build? I would suggest at least replacing the valve guides along with the port, the sizing is also important. Less important is bigger high perf valves and springs unless your build calls for them. Many have used stock valves with heavier springs designed for the cam grind.

To get it perfect, you should get the cylinders bored and honed to the pistons, check deck height. Then have the heads' combustion chambers sized
for the c/r that you need with an .030 gasket. This way, if you have a pinging problem, it should be solved by useing a stock thickness gasket. quench will be different, but it will bring down the c/r a point or so.

There is nothing wrong with figuring out the expected deck height(usually) 0.00 and using that for your comp figures.
 

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Screamin' Eagle
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Discussion Starter #8
With the budget in mind part, I am pretty sold on a SE Stage II (though could be swayed). I'm trying to to factor wether the extra expense on either SE HTCC heads or head porting is worth the money. I'd rather have everything done at once and thus save on my labor portion of the build.

Last time I ramped up a bike, I was on enlisted Army pay, was 19, and riding an 883 piglet... things have changed with the TwinCams.

Am I better off boring vs. replacing my cylinders? How much of a bore can my stock jugs take?

Again, thanks for all of the great info.

- E
 

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"Jane you ignorant slut!"
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2,292 Posts
With the budget in mind part, I am pretty sold on a SE Stage II (though could be swayed). I'm trying to to factor wether the extra expense on either SE HTCC heads or head porting is worth the money. I'd rather have everything done at once and thus save on my labor portion of the build.

Am I better off boring vs. replacing my cylinders? How much of a bore can my stock jugs take?
You might go back and read the responses the shops gave to your original questions.

You'll get more for your money to port your heads.
Bore your seasoned cylinders. 95" is common, there are shops that are now going to 98" and claim it's fine. If I was going to go to 98", to be safe I'd buy a new Axtell cylinder kit, I think about $900.

Chris
 

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<><
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What are your expectations? I purchased my current bike... done... 95", 203 cams, SE hc pistons, SERT, intake/exhaust. It was surprisingly uninspiring. Started over. Complete head work, pistons, decent cam but not all the way, re-tune. Again, left me uninspired. Screw it!!!... add the big cam, re-tune, bingo!!

Bottom line, what I THOUGHT I had wasn't what I was looking for. Be SURE you'll be happy before you start. You drag race (past/present doesn't matter)?????? You're going to want more. I felt it all the way up, and wasn't happy until I had the numbers you see below. Just bite the bullet and do it right, or you might be disappointed. -2$en#e-

PS -- read. learn. the guys on this forum will take you where you want to go.
 

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Ironbutt
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You didn't say if you are doing the work yourself. If you are then your options all open. If you are taking it to a HD dealer or Indy then your options are usually more limited. Seems like every builder has their own receipe for performance. Some don't like using parts from other sources or won't warranty anything if they do, etc. Having an engine built can be a frustrating task. If you are planing on having someone else do the work then i would get as many references as you can from the different builders in your area. Most of them can "talk the talk" but few can "walk the walk", if you know what i mean. You can trust the builders advise on this forum though.
 

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With the budget in mind part, I am pretty sold on a SE Stage II (though could be swayed). I'm trying to to factor wether the extra expense on either SE HTCC heads or head porting is worth the money. I'd rather have everything done at once and thus save on my labor portion of the build.

Last time I ramped up a bike, I was on enlisted Army pay, was 19, and riding an 883 piglet... things have changed with the TwinCams.

Am I better off boring vs. replacing my cylinders? How much of a bore can my stock jugs take?

Again, thanks for all of the great info.

- E
You would do well to spend some time looking around here for awhile before laying down the $$ on an SE build. You will end up with alot more with your money. You could do as I did and get your heads ported and cc'd by bigboyz for $350, get your cylinders bored, <$100, $110 for 95" SE flat tops and put in an andrews chain 37b (I got mine used off ebay for <$100). This combo and good pipe and tune with .030 head gasket and you'll out perform that SE build for a lot less money. Mine goes 97hp/107tq. Now that's awfully good for that build but tons of guys on here have that same build and get 90's hp and near 100tq which will still eat the SE build you are considering. the first $1500 you spend on that motor will get you an awful lot more, after that, every ponie starts getting progressively more expensive. You've drag raced so you know about how cubic $$ work.

Really though, look around you'll beat that SE build by a mile for same or less $$
 

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Plan to be uninspired

I thought long and hard before I bored to 95 and did gear cams and such. The problem is that it is not enough. My point is do it right the first time and get the most you can afford and/or think you need. Why do it twice?
 

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not sober all the time
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@gree: There are a lot of good ideas from the sponsors and members. All of them are steering you in the right direction. You could stay with the SE stuff and still run OK if you are limited to a dealer for the build but I wouldn't go with the HTCC heads. I would have the stock heads worked or just leave them stock and call it a day. If you leave them stock, you'll be missing a little power though. Don't buy new jugs, bore the stock cylinders for a 95" build. For low to mid RPM power and 2-up touring use a mild cam, bump the compression and get a mild port job on your heads.....you'll be smiling.

And if you see my little bro up there in St. Paul, knock him in the head. +SMSH+
 

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Premium Member
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SpeedGlide said:
I need some clarification... I'm entertaining the idea of building my 88 up also. Can you explain your statement...."Stage 4 will give you pretty much the same #'s but will rev 2-4 seconds quicker".....
The stage 4's are welded to choke the ports down 30% for max velocity and will usually do a 5th gear dyno pull from 2,500 to 5,000 rpm in around 5 seconds opposed to 8.5 seconds as we have whitnessed with other heads. The stage 4 yields 1.1 torque and hp per cube, the stage 5's that Steve is refering to will go 1.2 to 1.3 depending on the compression. We always recommend these cnc ported heads because they take out the core shift and are so repeatable. Nothing worse than paying less for a hand ported set (that doesn't address core shift) and not getting what is expected. Hope this helps.
 

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KingofCubes said:
The stage 4's are welded to choke the ports down 30% for max velocity and will usually do a 5th gear dyno pull from 2,500 to 5,000 rpm in around 5 seconds opposed to 8.5 seconds as we have whitnessed with other heads. The stage 4 yields 1.1 torque and hp per cube, the stage 5's that Steve is refering to will go 1.2 to 1.3 depending on the compression. We always recommend these cnc ported heads because they take out the core shift and are so repeatable. Nothing worse than paying less for a hand ported set (that doesn't address core shift) and not getting what is expected. Hope this helps.
Ok, that makes sense, but wouldn't that decrease of 3.5 seconds equate to more HP? The only reason I ask that is you stated both setups are about the same hp and torque.
What are the price differences between the stage 4's vs the R&R cast heads? Could I assume the cnc ported heads may be more beneficial, because they can be custom ported to meet a customers specific build?
Thanks! Jason
 

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BUT STEVE LOL, dont forget that the 8G Bob Wood cam will get you there quicker. Ask Bigman. the R&R cast heads are the best bang for the buck. just dont no if the heads will have to be redone this winter on the bigger motor. Booggerbe
 

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Heads

route66paul said:
You don't always have to do a $800 job on the heads, many times $400-$600 will get what YOU might need. It is all subjective - what do you expect to get out of your build? I would suggest at least replacing the valve guides along with the port, the sizing is also important. Less important is bigger high perf valves and springs unless your build calls for them. Many have used stock valves with heavier springs designed for the cam grind.

To get it perfect, you should get the cylinders bored and honed to the pistons, check deck height. Then have the heads' combustion chambers sized
for the c/r that you need with an .030 gasket. This way, if you have a pinging problem, it should be solved by useing a stock thickness gasket. quench will be different, but it will bring down the c/r a point or so.

There is nothing wrong with figuring out the expected deck height(usually) 0.00 and using that for your comp figures.
Yes indeed, many folks can be happy with a set of our Stage I Heads. They go for $400.00, and can accomplish some very good gains. Same top-shelf quality as our Stage III Vortex units. Many ways to get around the barn.
Scott
 

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wildbillnc
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117 Posts
I would recommend Head work 95" and a wood TW6G cam very well mannered and a blast to ride:thumbsup:

PS: no worries about pinging!!!
 

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IronButt
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ping is caused by many reasons, making a statement that a 6 cam will not ping , is rather incorrect. With a properly set up package you should not have ping.

But if there is too much compression, incorrect tune, incorrect squish, poor ported heads, ign timing, can all lead to ping. You can induce ping into just about any set up.
 
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