[revperf]

Believe it or not, this is actually a pretty rare occasion that I post at length. I would also like to preface my post to the effect that I do NOT in any way, shape, form or fashion want to be misconstrued as "blowing my own horn". I also really don't want to engage in a metallurgical debate. Now, with all that said....let's talk pistons. Hi! My name is Brian and my company sells, almost exclusively, pistons based upon a 2618 forging! :spank: There, I feel so much better now that that is off my chest!:woohoo: Seriously guys, I have been intimately involved in the development of the Revolution/Millennium cylinders almost since their enception in 96-97 and have run just about every available form and/or fashion of piston on the market in them. When we won the ADBA Superstock national championship back in '98 we used hypereutectic OEM Thunderstorm pistons with .001 clearance. Don Tilley on the other hand used Wisecos of a different forging nature and had great success (Don't know the P/SW). Early in '99 we switched to Ross forgings then on to JE's and won the World's in Melbourne, Australia(Both at .002-.0025). In 2000 we started testing with the CP 2618 as well as embarking on aggressive cam/barrel experimentation. In '03 when Scott Scherb and I won the HDSP 883 National championship we routinely turned that motor over 8500 rpm for 12-30 miles on the big tracks. How many piston failures did we have? Zero. What was the piston to sidewall on that engine? .0015 to .002" with a 2618. We ran them in everything from my own father's '99 FXDX (Prototype cylinders .0015 P/SW and is currently in my shop for a 114" upgrade after 30,000 city and highway miles and over 200 passes at the dragstrip...leakdown was 3%) to Evo dressers in the Arizona desert to XL's in the great white north to 100" nitrous motors on the salt. Have we ever had a failure? Sure. Was it due to a 2618 piston forging distorting or breaking down over time. No. To my knowledge, in the last five years we have NEVER had a piston seize (cold or hot, street or race) that was installed correctly. The list goes on and on and on.....but I digress. I am not attempting to climb a soapbox that, to be honest, others here are more worthy to climb. The bottom line is this, we have rigorously used and tested and won races and set records with just about everything out there. They all have qualities that are inherent. There are choices in the industry. Make your own (God Bless the USA!) and be at peace. We use 2618's and the cylinders are warranteed for life. Thanks so much for everyone's time and if there are other questions please give me a call toll free at 866-892-2109.

Brian Nallin
Revolution Performance, LLC

 

[joepenoso]

We appreciate hearing from you.

joepenoso

PS any advantages to using 2618 forgings on the street
compared to Cast or Hyper forged?
:thanks:

 

[geoffreyt]

Yes, thanks for posting.

 

[revperf]

Not a problem. They are, in fact, the very cylinders and pistons that HDW sells. And he does a fantastic job representing the product I might add:bowdwn: . To answer as to whether they are necessarily better than cast or hypereutectic or 4032 in a street application the answer would be no. Are they necessarily worse given the combination that they are presented in....they answer would again be no. They are presented in a combination that has been subjected to brutal research, development and testing and have proven themselves to be more than adequate for street use. They also provide a structural platform that is already in place and allows for the client to lean on the combo even harder without fret (i.e nitrous, turbo, etc.) should he/she so choose. And with that I prepare to be :flames: .

BN

 

[petelogan]

And with that I prepare to be :flames: .

BN

Don't see why. As far as I recall the current go round on pistons failing involved taking some units that were designed for street use, running them at 19,000 rpm down the drag strip under WOT and heavy detonation all the way and then being surprised that they didn't like it.

Oh Crap - I s'pose that's my as$ in line now

I'd be far more concerned with performance characteristics than with reliability on pistons. Any pistons.

 

[Dron54]

BN, you said everything in a nutshell, alot more diplomaticly than me. Question, do you know George Velious? He's the weird little guy that started those Nikasil cylinders back in the mid 90's. He sent some to Ron Dickey, Dan Fitzmaurice and me. Not a bad idea but they had too many fins and his mold left too many pits. Before Millenium bought the rights, George had asked my boss at KB to pour them in hyper alloy like Porshe Racing. The boss didn't want to diversify. Can you imagine a simular coefficient of expansion in both the cylinder and piston?
Panman

 

[revperf]

Hey Panman,

George Velios.....good grief! We try not to re-visit the Velios era around here!:badmood: What a guy. Either way, the cylinders have been in an almost constant state of metallurgical development since then. As you stated earlier, there were some inherent characteristics both functionally and aesthetically that needed to be changed and were. To be completely honest with you, we essentially just scrapped Velios' pattern and re-designed. Jim Hackl is a mechanical engineer by formal training and immediately recognized some significant structural design parameters that were substandard to say the least. Thanks for the compliment on the post by the way. Real hard to post sometimes secondary to a lack of tone and inflection in the written word. Sometimes things come across wrong even with the best of intentions.

Brian

 

[BaggerDave]

What is the difference between RevPerf and Axtel?

Brian,

I actually alread own KB flattops and nicely bored cylinders. I have not installed them yet and am still poking around the 98 or 97" cylinders. It seems that some of the dyno charts I have seen for the 98" kits reflect higher HP and TQ numbers than 3 CI would indicate. Any comments on that?

Also Axtel sells what appears to be several variations of this product too in both lined and unlined cylinders. Why would one purchase your product over theirs?

Thanks,

David

 

[revperf]

I actually alread own KB flattops and nicely bored cylinders. I have not installed them yet and am still poking around the 98 or 97" cylinders. It seems that some of the dyno charts I have seen for the 98" kits reflect higher HP and TQ numbers than 3 CI would indicate. Any comments on that?

Also Axtel sells what appears to be several variations of this product too in both lined and unlined cylinders. Why would one purchase your product over theirs?

Thanks,

David[/QUOTE]

Hey David,

There are several factors that can attributed to bigger numbers. One is the physical addition of cid. Size does matter. :brows: Others include lower ring drag coefficents, better ring seal. Another factor that is sometimes overlooked which is mechanically unshrouding the valves. This happens when you move the bore wall farther away from the valve curtain area. Thus allowing the heads to physically work better. That is a whole 'nuther thread though.

Axtell, to my knowledge, doesn't offer an all aluminum plated bore for there 97" kit. They do, however, offer their new "NiCom" cylinders for Evos and Buells.
Why would one purchase your product over theirs?
1. Millennium/Revolution are the largest cylinder platers in the country with contracts including the MoCo and the military among others of note.
2. Proprietary, aerospace alloys with superior thermal dynamics and stability.
3. Proprietary nickel-silicon-carbide percentages and processes.
4. All processes short of pouring the hot metal are performed in house. We are the only ones that can claim this.
5. Nickel-silicon-carbide lasts up to 10 times as long as conventional cast iron sleeves.
6. Up to 5 times greater heat dissipation. (Independent study at Northwestern University)
7. Warranteed for life against detrimental warpage and plating defects.

Thanks so much for everyones time!
Brian

 

[zippy123]

Brian, a competitor from another site I'm a member on made this comment on the comparison between Axtell and Millenium:

No, Millennium does not plate Axtell's cylinders. Axtell cylinders are plated in an ISO 9000 certified facility with a full time chemical engineer. You wouldn't believe how important it is to control the plating process.

Also, both companies use castings, not forgings.

One big difference between them, and another reason we dropped the Millennium line and went to Axtell, is the Axtells are all torque plate honed. The Millenniums are not.

We sold a lot of Millenniums, we were their biggest distributor in fact. It was the best product out there until Axtell entered the market.

Whats your take?

 

[revperf]

No, Millennium does not plate Axtell's cylinders. True. I believe that U.S. Chrome in Fon du Lac, WI. plates their cylinders for them. U.S. Chrome is a good company. We plate ours in house.

Axtell cylinders are plated in an ISO 9000 certified facility with a full time chemical engineer. Could be.

You wouldn't believe how important it is to control the plating process. Absolutely true. Just ask Jack Roush. We plate all the cylinders for his P51 Mustang aircraft. Don't want that plating to fail.
Also, both companies use castings, not forgings. True statement although I don't know the nature of their casting process or the materials.

One big difference between them, and another reason we dropped the Millennium line and went to Axtell, is the Axtells are all torque plate honed. The Millenniums are not. Not an accurate statement. They are not honed in conventional torque plates but rather a proprietary process that accurately simulates the H-D/Buell split aluminum cases. It is good enough that both H-D and Buell's CVO/Race department engineers approved it.[/COLOR]

We sold a lot of Millenniums, we were their biggest distributor in fact. True.

It was the best product out there until Axtell entered the market. Opinion. But that's cool and that is what's great about this country that we live in. Axtell is a good company with a tremendous amount of respect for many years in both street and racing circles. Ron Dickey is a good man with an almost bottomless well of knowledge when it comes to the H-D V-Twin. I also consider him a friend. People are welcome to make choices. Axtell has a good product. I know that we have a good product. When there are two good products I think that choices for a supplier are made based upon working relationships. The better the working relationship the better the customer service and overall experience for the end user. In the end, that's all that really matters.

BN

 

[zippy123]

They are not honed in conventional torque plates but rather a proprietary process that accurately simulates the H-D/Buell split aluminum cases. It is good enough that both H-D and Buell's CVO/Race department engineers approved it.[/COLOR]



BN

Thanks for the reply. Could you maybe go into a bit more detail on the above "simulation process"?

And how does it compare to how straight and round your Millenium cylinder bores are(on average) compared to the Axtell cylinders when torqued down and under use?

 

[revperf]

Thanks for the reply. Could you maybe go into a bit more detail on the above "simulation process"? I am under some constraints that doesn't allow that to happen other than we warrantee the cylinder for life against warpage detrimental to engine performance.

And how does it compare to how straight and round your Millenium cylinder bores are(on average) compared to the Axtell cylinders when torqued down and under use?

I don't want to speak for the Axtell pieces. I also don't want to turn this thread into a direct marketing comparitive of the two companies/products. The market is big enough and both products are quality in their respective ways. Suffice it to say though that when torqued down and under use the Rev pieces are straight to within .0003".

Zippy,

I would be happy to visit with you more offline. Call me toll free at 866-892-2109.

Thanks,

BN

 

[HDWRENCH]

I want to thank you Brian for the comment. I am by no means as up to your knowledge level on pistons:bowdwn: But I will add to this post is that I have done too many of these builds to count. And I can say that I have not seen a failure yet to date. As for abuse I know that i have induced as much abuse on my own engine, from drag racing to 6800 rpm in top gear for miles on end ( new mexico is flat LOL ) and to well over 200 dyno pulls and have no problems.

I used this product before selling it and had used another before and no longer use or sell it. I sell this products because it FLAT OUT WORKS:chopper: I have used many other kits do they work ,...yes but when it comes to customer service, or a problem. I know that I have Brian in MY corner to make sure I get what it takes to get the job done right the first time If that means I need parts red labled and Sat dropped , well he has done it for me to get the job DONE. For that I thank him and want to congradulate him on a job WELL done.

And I am sticking by my statement I like to use 5lb coffee cans for pistons they ROCK!!!:roflback:

 

[petelogan]

And I am sticking by my statement I like to use 5lb coffee cans for pistons they ROCK!!!:roflback:

Oh Man - doncha know ya use wood fer the pistons :wacko:

Ya jus cover the top with the can base if ya wanna run unleaded :roflback:

 

[Dron54]

Wood? Don't laugh, seen it. Don't know how long Brian has been around but he may have seen it too at a Superflow conference. Back in the mid 90's a guy from Cortez Eng. brought a little 100cc motor(homemade) and had it running the whole time he lectured about combustion technology. After a short question and answer session he went over to the little put-put and started turning a screw(mixture). Almost immediately it started smoking then quit. He took out 4 headbolts and slid the cylinders and head off to expose a hardwood piston. His point was TUNING is EVERYTHING, a fact missed by most 'wrenches' today. Heck, harley used cast iron pistons up into the 20's. The arguement over piston alloys in OLD. The thermal properties of each cannot be changed, no matter who you are. Your choice should be based on your riding style.
Panman

 

[zippy123]

Wood? Don't laugh, seen it. Don't know how long Brian has been around but he may have seen it too at a Superflow conference. Back in the mid 90's a guy from Cortez Eng. brought a little 100cc motor(homemade) and had it running the whole time he lectured about combustion technology. After a short question and answer session he went over to the little put-put and started turning a screw(mixture). Almost immediately it started smoking then quit. He took out 4 headbolts and slid the cylinders and head off to expose a hardwood piston. His point was TUNING is EVERYTHING, a fact missed by most 'wrenches' today. Heck, harley used cast iron pistons up into the 20's. The arguement over piston alloys in OLD. The thermal properties of each cannot be changed, no matter who you are. Your choice should be based on your riding style.
Panman

What was the piston to wall clearance of that 100cc engine with the wood piston? "Wood" you see any long term issues to durability running in a street engine? How "wood" you compare it to 2618,4032, cast or hypereutectic pistons? :finger:

 

[petelogan]

What was the piston to wall clearance of that 100cc engine with the wood piston? "Wood" you see any long term issues to durability running in a street engine? How "wood" you compare it to 2618,4032, cast or hypereutectic pistons? :finger:

Well, as far as I recall from Bentley motors in the 1920's, the piston to wall clearance was somewhere between a saw blade and an axe head.

I suspect you may be right that there may be some issues related to long term durability, but if you are asking whether it works or not, the answer is yes.

Not necessarily in your application.

The point is, anything can be made to work.

The issue is. how good is the man.

 

[STB]

outstanding

Brian,

Ya got a way with words, man! Let's see, mmmmmmm, "peacemaker", mmmmmmm maybe........... "counselor" (already taken), ok......... professional, yeah that's it. The Prof.

STB

 

[revperf]

Well thank you counselor!

BN