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Yes they are, especially the narrow band, not sure how much tuning/correction they really do.
My bike seems to run better with the 02 eliminators.
 

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This is from Jamie at Fuel Moto:
Because of the large amount of questions I receive about the O2 sensors and all of the incorrect information we have seen on the 07 Harley EFI, I will further explain how the closed loop EFI system works on the Harley Delphi system and why Dynojet has developed the Power Commander with O2 sensor eliminators. First I will start by explaining how the narrowband O2 sensor works. Keep in mind the O2 sensor is only one of the many sensors which monitor engine functions in the EFI system. The narrowband O2 sensor can only accurately measure a small area within 14.7:1 stoichiometric air/fuel ratio range and works by providing a voltage signal to the ECM which then will continuously monitor the stoichiometric mid point crossover and adjust accordingly until the A/F is in the 14.7:1 range. The ECM is only using the O2 sensor feedback signal when the system is in closed loop mode. Closed loop mode occurs only under certain conditions which are light load, steady speed part throttle, constant mode. It is only after these conditions that the will EFI go into closed loop mode and the ECM will adjust until the O2 crossover point is in the 14.7:1 A/F range. Simply put, an narrowband O2 sensor only works for adjusting low load/cruise area and does not work well in performance applications because it can only monitor a small area within the stoichiometric A/F range. With that being said, yes the stock EFI can adjust itself on the 07 Harley models. That is if you consider the small amount of time it is in closed loop, and then when the ECM is able to adjust A/F it can only adjust it within the 14.7:1 range which is WAY too lean. For reasonable performance and drivability this 14.7:1 A/F is extremely lean and this is the reason for the 07 bikes to run very hot with poor drivability. This condition gets even worse when you change your exhaust or air cleaner. Optimum A/F ratio for cruise area is 13.4-13.6:1 and 12.8-13.2:1 for wide open throttle. When you install an aftermarket EFI module (regardless of manufacturer) you will need to eliminate the O2 sensors with eliminators that send a fixed signal. This will prevent the EFI from going into closed loop mode and you will be able to tune to an optimum A/F ratio for the bike to run properly, otherwise the stock O2 sensors and closed loop mode will try to lean the mixture within the 14.7:1 range. Even with the Harley Screamin Eagle Race Tuner in which you can retain the O2 sensors, again you can still only work within the stoichiometric range which the only voltage the O2 sensors can measure. Dynojet certainly has the technology to develop a Power Commander for the Harley models with a Wideband sensor that replaces the stock O2 sensor which would be able to tune in real time to target A/F ratios, Power modes etc.. although with the relatively simple design of the Harley/Delphi injection the current Power Commander USB is more than capable of adjusting what we need to adjust at the moment. Keep in mind in Japanese applications the Power Commander is widely used as well in EFI systems that are far more complex with technology such as Dual ECU's, computer controlled secondary throttle blades, multiple staged injectors for each cylinder, fly by wire throttle and for 2007 computer variable intake length. From our experience tuning bikes everyday we know the Power Commander is the best EFI module available and works like no other to effectively adjust the EFI in the full range of RPM's and throttle positions, including the light load/steady cruise areas. Keep in mind that our maps are developed using different modes for light load/cruise area and for upper RPM full throttle performance. We have seen excellent results on the 2007 bikes and will increase your riding enjoyment. I hope this has helped with any questions.
Thank you.......Jamie
 

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I still think with a SERT and 02 eliminators you can tune most any combination..... the hard part is finding someone who really knows the SERT and is willing to spend the time to do it right..... this is more $$$ and more effort of course.
This has led me to consider an auto tune system.
 

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Respectfully submitted counterpoint
The SERT and proper CLB numbers, perhaps eliminating some of the higher load areas from closed loop control can accomplish a equal or better result than the PC solution without any additional added electronic gear. A proper dyno tune would be the finishing touch to a very good running bike that also got very good fuel mileage.
No pony in this race, just a hobbiest. My own bike has a DTT that also gets the job done as would the Tmax.
Closed loop is here to stay. If Power Comander had a system that updated their box as does the "linktune" but on a roadtest I may get a little interest but that would be without screwing with closed loop by adding the anti-technology eliminators .
JMHO
 

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Why would anyone use O2 eliminators with a SERT? If you set the air/fuel ratio tables to anything but 14.6, the system is in open loop and O2 sensor readings are irrelevant. The above sales pitch for the Power Commander is misleading in that the SERT is fully adjustable in open loop mode and can be set to run closed loop at settings richer than stoichiometric. Yes, the Power Commander is capable of making most required adjustments, but the SERT is capable of MUCH more. Even the autotune systems require someone who knows the system for it to work properly--none of the autotune systems are plug and play like they would lead you to believe.
 

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Why

I could eliminate decel pop with the SERT then after about 50 miles it would return, even with the AFR set so 02's would be in open loop.
With the 02 eliminators that stopped, I also have a SuperTrapp exhaust for an 06 without the bungs so... those are some reasons why.:laugh:
 

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Maybe grock or Doc can chime
IMO 02 eliminators are not the way to tune with the SERT. If one was inclined you can toggle off the whole closed loop area by a software change. No hardware changed. The target AFRs are not the issue, VEs need changing to affect a change from my knowledge, I could be corrected.
 

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nw_guy4_fun

nw_guy4_fun said:
Respectfully submitted counterpoint
The SERT and proper CLB numbers, perhaps eliminating some of the higher load areas from closed loop control can accomplish a equal or better result than the PC solution without any additional added electronic gear. A proper dyno tune would be the finishing touch to a very good running bike that also got very good fuel mileage.
No pony in this race, just a hobbiest. My own bike has a DTT that also gets the job done as would the Tmax.
Closed loop is here to stay. If Power Comander had a system that updated their box as does the "linktune" but on a roadtest I may get a little interest but that would be without screwing with closed loop by adding the anti-technology eliminators .
JMHO

@gree: Couldn't agree more. To me a power commander pretty much leaves you in the hands of a dyno tuner and the environmental conditions of the day your bike was tuned. I prefer the adjustibility and adaptability of the DTT with WEGO. Heck, at least I can dial in what I need for the environment I ride in. And when I make a change, I know the system will adapt to it rather then having to fork out another couple c-notes to the dyno man for assurance.
 

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O2 eliminators are useless with a SERT. The SERT allows you to set the ECM in open loop mode by simply adjusting the AFR tables in the map. In open loop mode, the O2 sensor data is ignored by the ECM.

There is no need whatsoever, under any circumstances, for O2 eliminators with a SERT. Anyone who says otherwise is either telling you a lie, or they simply do not know what they are talking about.
 

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This is from a post I made on another forum regarding the same issue.


This discussion definately caught my eye and has been very interesting reading, now, for my 2cents, last spring I built my 07 Ultra using Woods 7H cams, SE Flat tops and heads ported by BigBoyz, I then tuned the bike out of closed loop using the TwinscanII to set the VE tables and ran the bike with 02 eliminators using an afr map I built , Mileage was around 36 to 38, I ran this way for around 1000 miles or so, I then enabled the 02 function by changing the afr table back to 14.6 in cruise areas and clb's maxed out. Did some data runs corrected VE's to Map VE's alway ran very close, I then ran this way for nearly 4000 miles, mileage went up by a couple, I felt like I lost a slight bit of throttle response, but the big difference was the excessive heat, after returning from a 3500 mile trip I put my old Map back in the bike and re-installed the 02 eliminators, immediatley noticed better throttle response and cooler running, I then did a little more work on my afr table (leaned 80 and 100 MAP areas slightly) and am getting a consistent 38 to 40 mpg and no more heat than before. The problem I see with running closed loop on a modified engine is the function of the adaptive fuel, if the ecm reads a certain amount rich/lean in closed loop, it applies a percentage correction to the entire Map(operating range), at least this is the way the function has been described to me, this may be fine on a stock motor but may not meet the fuel requirements of a modified motor. For me, the eliminators have worked perfectly with no ill effects, the stock o2 sensors have a new home in my toolbox where they will stay. For those who say you dont need the eliminators to run out of closed loop, you need them to keep from getting a CEL, even with the afr table out of 14.6 you will still get a CEL(sensors removed from bike) unless you run the eliminators(1 Meg resistors). Another thing I noticed from SERT data runs is the VE's and corrected VE's run exactly the same at all times with the eliminators installed. I am not saying everyone should run out and eliminate their 02's but it worked for me and my specific build. I have also done the same on one other 07 and it has worked out well so far and eliminated the heat and pinging problems the owner was experiencing.
 

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And if one were to put in 1/2 meg resistors inline with the stock o2 sensors and use closed loop with the CLB bias maxed out...
:whatever:
 

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nw_guy4_fun said:
And if one were to put in 1/2 meg resistors inline with the stock o2 sensors and use closed loop with the CLB bias maxed out...
:whatever:
Now that sounds like Nightrider's fix with their voltage divider. Eliminating the 02 sensors simply put, get's you back to having the ecm behave just like the 06 and earlier delphi, back before all the heat and pinging issues.
 

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I am on the same page as BVBOB on this one. My 07 went from having the DTT wego to a Sert with o2 eliminators and has never ran better. It is currently a 103" with 31h cam and Bigboyz heads and D&D fatcat w/quiet baffle. When I ran the DTT I had issues. The bike always seemed to want to learn itself back no matter how many times I applied the BLM table. I might just be out of my realm when it comes to tuning with EFI, but now the bike just plain old runs sweet. I am sure in the hands of someone who knows there chit, the DTT and the T-max are great. My bike is now a joy to ride. No pinging, no heat, no surging and no issues.
 

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nw_guy4_fun said:
Maybe grock or Doc can chime
IMO 02 eliminators are not the way to tune with the SERT. If one was inclined you can toggle off the whole closed loop area by a software change. No hardware changed. The target AFRs are not the issue, VEs need changing to affect a change from my knowledge, I could be corrected.
i doubt you could be corrected. spot on as always. but im sure someone will try.
 

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The 02 sensor and it's Adaptive Fuel Values is the best thing since Penicillin for the Delphi system. The only requirement to make it work like it was designed to is to be 10% smarter than what your working with....:laugh: ..

Really in the hands of a good Dyno Operator and good Tuner with the knowledge of the Race Tuner program the 02 sensor operation is only a plus.
Now I'm not saying that Jamie or anyone else here is stupid...on the contrary I respect Jamie's knowledge and passion for this industry along with a few others here but the bottom line is if the Tuner is used correctly the AFV and the o2 sensor will correct up to 40% fuel delivery from the base map and the AFV will assist in the open loop area.

For those who say the closed loop is too lean I have news for you, I can set the closed loop area to where it will gas foul plugs. I understand people having doubts with this system and most of those doubts come from bad tuner experiences...again having someone that knows the program can do more with the Tuner, for a street bike, than any other aftermarket system out there.
 

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Although some have had success useing the eliminators, I still believe they are not required for a properly tuned SERT. There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat!!
I tend to take the entire map out of closed loop and don't try to cheat the system with the CLB tables. I HAVE encountered problems when useing the CLB tables to richen the closed loop areas. There appears to be some validity to the learned corrections being applied to the entire map. I feel that taking the entire map out of closed loop, there are no learned corrections. If I'm wrong please educate me further. Since I have been useing the open loop tuning method, I have experienced no comebacks or apparent self corrections to any map I've done. This method I've described has worked well for me and I probably average 5-8 SERT tuneups a week. I'm always open for further education so if I'm off base, please educate me! For those that use the eliminators and are happy, well that's what it's all about in the long run. I guess the botttom line is-there are several methods to a successful tuneup--use what works for you. JMHO

Looks like Doc was typing faster than me--just proves there are many ways to get a good tuneup.
 

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HAWGZILLA said:
Although some have had success useing the eliminators, I still believe they are not required for a properly tuned SERT. There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat!!
I tend to take the entire map out of closed loop and don't try to cheat the system with the CLB tables. I HAVE encountered problems when useing the CLB tables to richen the closed loop areas. There appears to be some validity to the learned corrections being applied to the entire map. I feel that taking the entire map out of closed loop, there are no learned corrections. If I'm wrong please educate me further. Since I have been useing the open loop tuning method, I have experienced no comebacks or apparent self corrections to any map I've done. This method I've described has worked well for me and I probably average 5-8 SERT tuneups a week. I'm always open for further education so if I'm off base, please educate me! For those that use the eliminators and are happy, well that's what it's all about in the long run. I guess the botttom line is-there are several methods to a successful tuneup--use what works for you. JMHO

Looks like Doc was typing faster than me--just proves there are many ways to get a good tuneup.
this is my understanding, also. if you plug in richer values, just enough to keep it out of closed loop, you should be fine. It is my understanding that you really don't want to be in the loop, that even at it's best, it is to lean. I'll go out on a limb here and say that if set to have the leanest setting just out of range, you can tune the for all other areas. I would think that you shouldn't have a too rich problem ever.
 
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