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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm the original owner of a 2000 FLHTCUI and it was trouble free until this year, now I'm having issues with the MM EFI system and It's starting to cost me money and aggravation chasing the EFI problems.

I'm trying to decide whether or not I should continue to chase the problems or convert to a carb setup now and be done with it.

It would be interesting to hear from any folks here that don't have issues with the MM EFI on their 1999-2001 bikes and what their mileage is?

EDIT: It would also be interesting to hear from anyone who had issues and got them fixed without further problems.

Thank you.
 

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Me, myself and I. I have never had any single problem. 2001 Road King Classic. About 50.000 miles. My EFI works good. Recalibrated with DFO. Recent inspection of the clutch: almost like brand new. Recent inspection of the belt: almost like brand new.

What kind of a problem you have on your mind exactly?



emirharley
"Sarajevo Bikers Club" MC
www.sarajevobikersclub.ba
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Harley-Davidson Road King Classic FLHRCI EFI
Screamin' Eagle Stage One Kit
RevTech DFO Stealth Performance System
Screamin' Eagle Performance Mufflers
(Set two: Wild Pig Pipes, 2" baffles)
Lower Fairings
Ape Hanger
Back Rests
Kuryakyn Spider Light
...
et cetera
..
.
 

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EvilMonger
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I have a 2000 FLTRSEI that had MM EFI. I got tired of cold start/idle issues that I could not fix. My bike is a different case. Being a factory screaming eagle the program that was flashed to the computer was unique to the FLTRSEI. If I reflashed and ever wanted to go back to stock I would have had to buy anothe ECM fromHD with the FLTRSEI flash. I could have bought a used ECM and reflashed that but chose to go Carb 3 years ago and have not had a single problem and still have the ability to go back to stock if I should ever wish to.
 

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Mine's a 2000 FLHTCI with 83,000 miles, and the EFI is fine. I used to fiddle with the idles, but since I set the cold idle using the voltage method, I haven't touched it in a couple of years. Get a service manual and some experience, and it shouldn't cost you anything to tweak it.
 

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I have a 99 Ultra with MM Injection. When I bought the bike 4 years ago the cold start/idle was terrible. Being in the car business it was not too difficult to diagnose as a bad idle speed motor. It actuated but once it touched the lever it would not move it. I replaced that and presto! I have the proper RPM gain when cold and it ramps back down to the proper idle when warm as it should. Right now, 58,000 miles and going strong...
 

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The keys words above "have never had a problem".

Yep, but once you DO.... hard to get right again. And that's speaking as a former tech of 4 years.

Do the carb conversion... that's what I'd do.
 

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ezrider....

You have asked a good question and yet a difficult one....great in that it's a valid question...difficult in that at this website you will never get enough statistical data to support what the general population of people owning the MM EFI bikes are actually experiencing with their rides.....

I believe your thoughts which of course is why we come here in the first place is perhaps to decide...what makes you more comfortable....granted you have HD's version of the first EFI (MM) for the twin cam.....many over the years on different websites have consistantly commented how they found such a system less than favorable....in fact I would say the "vast" majority who own the MM EFI bikes have been the most aggressive in doing their conversions from the MM EFI to carb.

The key however is what will so motivate you to enjoy your bike more....and to have the confidence to be able to work on it if there is a problem....SO my point is it must start with you....and how you feel....because it's a lonely feeling whether you are out on the road with all of your buddies/friends and your bike breaks down and you and everyone you are with are staring at it....so I would ask myself if such were to happen to me which one am I prepared to confidently dig in and figure out....I am inclusive with you that I own an EFI bike, mine however is the delphi.....at the end of the day just like you I have to learn about 5 more things than a carb bike owner does....as I have fuel injectors, a fuel pump, a fuel filter, etc.....well here it is look and see:

Carb Bike Has:
1) 32316-99 (MAP) Manifold Air Pressure (AKA Barometric Pressure Sensor) Sensor
32424-98 (MAP) Manifold Air Pressure (AKA Barometric Pressure Sensor) Sensor Without Seal
11291 (MAP) Manifold Air Pressure (AKA Barometric Pressure Sensor) Seal
2) 32798-00A (CKP) Crankshaft Position Sensor
3) 74429-97A (VSS) Speed Sensor
4) 68920-01A Bank Angle Sensor Within Turn Signal Module (TSM)
5) a 2001 EFI MM bike also has a camshaft position sensor as well....which assists in helping the ignition to fire....this is not on a delphi bike...

Carb Bike Does NOT Have:
1) 32446-99 Engine Temperature Sensor
2) 27629-01 (TPS) Throttle Position Sensor [KIT]
3) 27270-95 (IAT) Intake Air Temperature (IAT) [Kit]
4) 27628-01 (IAC) Idle Air Speed Control Actuator Sensor
5) 31511-01A System Relay Located In The Fuse Box Area Of An FLHRCI (RKC)
6) 27609-01 Front Injector
7) 27609-01 Rear Injector
8) 62897-01 Fuel Pump Assembly
9) 27408-01 Fuel Pump Regulator
10) Fuel Filter

So basically by going to carb you lessen 10 elements from consideration if problems develop.....and you gain new elements if a problem develops.....but they are sometimes "easier" elements for some to "cope" with.....

If many of your buddies are riding carb bikes and you break down.....unless they are just shade tree mechanic gurues they will scratch their head and say don't know bro....I have a carb....so if you are riding with mostly carb bikes....something to consider....on the other hand if your bros are all riding efi bikes someone is going to have some talent most likely.....

And while we are on this topic.....I think it can be pretty well established that the "technicians" at the dealerships are basically "part changers" but not necessarily great "diagnostic" wizzards and when we have problems with our bikes it really starts there can one successfully "diagnois" the problem....changing the 'part' is the easy element of this discussion....and unfortunately what the dealerships do is use the HD scanalizers and seek if they find a "Code" well sometimes these bikes don't THROW OUT codes and then the guess work begins....so the burdon shifts to you and I to decide what level of participation we are going to emerse ourselves into....are we going to learn as best we can what each sensor does and each part of what the EFI is doing well enough that if a problem develops we can implement a plan of attack or are we going to throw our hands in the air and look to someone else...ie: dealer technician which we have already develped doesn't bode well for confidence........

SO EZrider...it really comes down not to what others are "necessarily" experiencing but what you wish to be faced with if or when your bike breaks down....mechanical parts fail that's what they do....what are YOU going to be comfortable with.....even if you change to CARB you will need to learn about 5 sensors and how they play a role on your bike...so your not without a learning curve.....

But it should be said....your model year is the best canidate for in fact going to carb....it happens over and over.....and I am glad others here are having excellent experiences with their bikes....that's awesome.....but I personally chased a broken injector wire for 2 years unbeknownst to me that I was.....even the best indy mechanics with their skill set are guessing right along with you and me....SO IT COMES DOWN to what is going to motivate you to understand your bike the best....if it's switching to carb so be it....if it's running your bike as it came from the factory with your MM EFI so be it.....or if it's selling your bike and purchasing a 2002 carb bike which will be hard to find so be it....

If I have learned anything about the ownership of a motorcycle the burdon for me to learn about my bike rests with me as well as input from everyone here and at other "tech" boards to keep my bike running as trouble free as possible....

I would finallly say you will if you spend enough time reading, find an overwhelming support for taking your MM EFI to carb.....but the question is, is this the "support' you need to make the switch anyway???? Justification is just around the corner....you will find it.....

Regards,

"Classic"
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Classic,

Thanks for the very thoughtful analysis.

I started this thread to try to out if there is a large population of 1999-2001 MM EFI owners that are not having problems, that might give me some confidence that it might be worthwhile to try to get mine repaired and regain confidence that it would stay fixed.

The frustrating thing for me is that the MM EFI bike I have ran flawlessly for 7 years.

Now it has become troublesome and I no longer have any confidence that it will get me home or not ruin my planned vacation trips.

The MM EFI system proved to me for 7 years that it can do the job just fine but now something is broken with it. I didn't/don't expect any electro/mechanical system to function trouble free forever without needing maintenance. Also frustrating is why the MM EFI system is so difficult to troubleshoot and fix? Surely there must be some techs that understand and can fix the problems with it. I have already spent hundreds of $'s chasing the problems and it looks like a bottomless pit from what I'm learning based on others experience. Even if I get it straightened out now can I have confidence that it won't leave me stranded or ruin my vacation trips.

Because the MM EFI systems are so difficult and expensive to repair it seems that the path of least ressitance is to replace it with a carb, not my first choice but it's looking like my best option. I can convert to a Zipper's Delphi EFI system for $1,849.00 in parts plus labor but that is hard to take in view of the carb system conversion being much simpler and less expensive.

It looks like I'm headed for a carb conversion unless I can see something that makes more sense.

The 1999-2001 MM EFI problems are legendary and not the fault of bike owners but the MOCO. I really think the MOCO should recall these bikes and convert them to Delphi EFI systems. Mine stalled in crowded fast traffic and almost caused me to have a bad accident. Harley are you listening-THIS IS A SERIOUS SAFETY ISSUE. If this was happening with a big 3 automobile there would be a DOT recall.
 

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Ghetto Blaster
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Great post, ClassicRider. All good points to consider. My bike had an uneven idle, would stumble & cough at low RPMs (like turning a tight corner at slow speed) and generally ran OK, MOST of the time. The deciding factors in ditching my MM system were, 1) nobody wants to mess with it, 2) I intend to build my motor to (at least) 95" or bigger and 3) didn't want to rely on downloading different maps everytime an element is changed and 4) COST. For a little more than the cost of a PC III, i switched over to carb. I bought parts on e-bay, off this forum and even sold off my stock ECM and throttle body on e-bay to recoup some $$$. Installed everything myself and saved more there. Bike fired on 2nd or 3rd revolution and starts & runs great. No hassles. Like you said, there are a shitload of things to go wrong (potentially) with a MM EFI system. This narrows things down a bit if you're out on the road and having a problem. anyway, i'm glad i did it. And EZRider....I think you're OVER analyzing this. And you're also over estimating the difficulty. If by chance you can find an exact tank as yours (off a carbed bike) then LITERALLY IS A BOLT ON, PLUG & PLAY THING. I too thought this may have been a daunting task, at first. but i repeat....it's easy. Just do it.
Tim
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Tim,

My bike is a 2000 FLHTCUI. I think the CUI stands for EFI and there were carbed FLHT's for the same year, correct?

I ask this to confirm that a tank from a 2000 carbed FLHT will easily replace what I have.

I need a Luxury Rich Red tank, if anyone out there has one they want to part with let me know.
 

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I agree, Dr. Classic,
A very thoughtful, well-reasoned analysis. Before I got the MM EFI bike, I was absolute die-hard carb guy. I was dragged kicking and screaming into the world of EFI. Now that I've been the for a few years and have spent a lot of time and effort learning the system(s), I don't think I'd want to go back. Tuning a bike without getting your hands dirty is great fun.
But I think your most important message is the one of self-reliance. Nobody cares as much about your bike as you do, and with a little patience and effort, no one will know it as well as you either. EZ Rider, paying anyone to work on your bike is a money pit; in that respect, the MM is no different than anything else. These bikes aren't Buick's or Honda Civic's. A little self-reliance goes with the territory. As owners/riders, it's our responsibility to have a pretty good idea of what makes these tick. I can't count the number of times I've stopped to help someone stranded by the side of the road with problems as simple as a blown fuse. And that includes Honda riders as well as HD's. I think that's sad.
A good mechanic is also a good detective, and I agree with Classic that most dealer techs are parts replacers. If the computer doesn't tell them what's wrong, it's the unusual tech who will figure it out. It's really not that hard, especially if you only have to learn one bike.
So as Classic said, go with the system that seems right for you, but whatever you choose, jump in with both feet. Even if you have to pay someone else for some of the work, get your hands dirty. You won't regret it.
 

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Ghetto Blaster
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Tim,

My bike is a 2000 FLHTCUI. I think the CUI stands for EFI and there were carbed FLHT's for the same year, correct?

I ask this to confirm that a tank from a 2000 carbed FLHT will easily replace what I have.

I need a Luxury Rich Red tank, if anyone out there has one they want to part with let me know.
Actually, your FLHTCUI stands for FLHT (touring bike) CU (ultra classic) I (injected). Does your bike have cruise control? I think it should. In looking at my 2000 FLT series parts manual, as AdlerX stated in a previous post, that the tubes & fittings inside unbolt. I used a 99 model tank that made life a bit more difficult for me. I would have changed to a 2000 tank but mine was already stretched and bodyworked. You just unbolt the canopy assembly (under the chrome "dash" assembly). You remove ten sealing screws (that are usable once & only once-don't try & re-use) and the assembly lifts off. That contains the fuel pump assembly, filter and tank sending unit. I took off my fuel pump (and sold it on e-bay) and removed the inside tank fuel lines. Installed pingle EFI-Carb adapters and pingle petcock. Added fuel line and a small in-line filter and tank is done. If you can find a complete carb tank in luxury rich red (gee, thats what color mine WAS) that's the easiest thing. Just shitcan the vacuum operated stock HD petcock for the pingle one.
First thing, go to chicago HD and order a 2000 FLT service and parts manual. Come to think of it Clint50 had a manual here on this forum for sale used. Look in the classifieds section. Get that. Combining the manuals with the knowledge available here, you can do this. It's not rocket science. Just double check your work, bag & label all parts removed and make a check list. Put towels taped on with blue painters tape on any exposed painted parts like fenders and tape off chrome parts so you wont mar any of it and away you go. The service manual covers all disassembly for EFI, and re-assembly for carb. Anything that stumps you the forum is here.

oh yeah found a similar german website for doing this with a Delphi system, but the concept is the same.
http://www.amm.haan.de/Carb/carb.htm
You just don't need their ignition...i used a carbed Screamin Eagle ignition module & coil purchased on e-bay for HALF retail (listed for 199 bucks- got it for 99 bucks!) i think this is the part # 32749-99a search on e-bay using that #. look more on this past thread for more info.

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/touring-motorcycle-family-general-discussions/120870-magnetti-marelli-carb-swap.html

Hope this helps and gives you enough ammo to pull the trigger.
Tim
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Tim,

Thanks a lot for all the great information!

Yes my bike does have cruise control, will it still work after doing the conversion to a carb?

I have a service manual for my bike and will be having a good look at it per your suggestions.
 

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Ghetto Blaster
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I may be mistaken but i'm pretty sure it will (the CC) work. You still need the parts manual it's invaluable for this sort of thing. Shows exploded views w/ parts #'s.
Tim
 

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99 FLHRCI here with MM that has been trouble free for 111,000 miles. A few weeks ago began having cold start/ idle issues. Bike runs fine once it's warm and I've checked the intake, header bolts etc for leaks and everything is tight. Ran out today and runs fine at highway speed. Adjusted the warm idle on return which seemed to help. Noticed a little more popping on decel after idle adjustment. Have a PC USB III but it's only a year old and I don't think it's the problem.

ezrider...you say just reset it and pull the ecm fuse for 15 minutes. Can you fill me in on the re set it details or is that done by simply pulling the ecm fuse? Your reply is appreciated and thanks in advance.

Ride
 
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