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IronButt
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Indy show will have a few new EFI controllers. I now of two that are going to be close loop. Looking forward to that. It will make the dyno tuning/mapping part a thing of the past. Bolt it on a ride.
 

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EvilMonger
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I've read about the S&S one, what else is out there ? Do they use an O2 sensor ? I thought they are closed loop now, Open loop allows for changes, but what do I know??

Keep us posted.
 

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Have they, or anybody else, come out with anything for the MM system that I have on my 99 FLHRCI? Until now my only option was the PClll, although I have just been reading about the S&S tuner with their induction system. Has anybody heard anything? TIA, Mark
 

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EvilMonger
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I have used the power commander on my 2000 maraneli system with good luck. I am also interested in other alternatives. The only problem I have seen with the powercommander and in only a couple of rare cases. The power commander does not come on line until the bike is fully warmed up (I believe 284 degrees), until you are warmed you are using the ECM. With certain modifications bikes have a hard time cold starting/idling cold. This can be corrected with a reflash in most cases (now your doing two things instead of one). My problem with that is/was I have a 2000 screaming eagle road glide with the factory 1550 and my ECM has a flash/program specific to that bike (can not go back to after a reflash without bying a whole new ECM for $550.00 dollars). Just giving you some info on personal experience for what it is worth.
 

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IronButt
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
S&S new systemis MM and Delphi ( two differnet systems) Techlullisions has one and and ZIPPERS but they will only sell you a complete system if you buy their kit. HA HA HA ZIppers are so high priced I dont know how they stay in buiness. Check out the prices on there stuff. $9899.95 for a complete 107 tc exchange!!!!.
 

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I believe the Indy show was this past weekend......... Anybody get the scoop on this product? Anybody know where articles or any other info can be found??
 

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I'm running a PCIIIr in my fatboy and have no problems. The only thing I don't like about the S&S, is that it replaces the stock ECM. At least if the PC craps out on you, you can plug back into the stock ECM and make it home. If the S&S goes you're stuck. Just a thought!
 

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IronButt
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I just spoke to to company about there clsoed loop system. I have in my hand dyno sheets that they did on a full SE 103 kit 257 cams. 118hp and 127.2 tq. . I will have minew in a month for my 107 as well as a 51 MM TB from them as well. I will enjoy not having to pay for a system and then dyno work as well. Make a change and it will adjust for it. Should be very cool .
 

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I pulled this response off of another HD board that I posted on:



Closed loop fuel is not the best for either fuel economy or preformance. Closed loop by definition is closed loop about a given A/F ratio. For harley application, where everyone has a slightly different set-up the best way is a custom fuel MAP. For one-offs an open loop fuel cal and a good dyno will beat a pre-set closed loop system everytime. We used closed-loop in production vehicles for one reason ONLY, emissions. Catalytic Converters have a very narrow best mutual effiecncy range where tenths of an A/F make a difference. But even production vehicles are open loop at WOT ( wide open throttle ). At part throttle speed and load points the MBT/LBT ( maximun best torque at lean best fuel) varies widely with both load and RPM. At just WOT the MBT fuel varies from 1.4 to maybe 2 full AirFuel ratios across the entire RPM range of 800 rpm to 6400 ( if your bike could rev that high ).
Attempting to use a closed loop system to avoid real tuning on a dyno is a poor compromise, that will cost both fuel economy at cruising speeds and HP and Torque at wide open throttle. Even using a wide range air/fuel sensor, you still do not know what the air/fuel curve should look like for your application without using a dyno. Pre-set fuel MAPs and best guesses are just that guesses.
 

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IronButt
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I would disagree with that statement. Having a system that can make changes is the best. If you have a system that is capable of making the changes when you add big cams why not?? why have a custom map that would have to be changed after you do a cam swap or have the heads done or changes the exhaust system?? The custom map is done using a EGA that reads air fuel ratio a person then makes a change to get the ratio to a range that he or she knows will work. The perfect ratio is not "perfect " as each engine requires something different. Using a O2 in the exhaust system is how all new cars and trucks work. And the system does not use a pre set fuel map it look at how YOUR bike is running and makes changes in the fuel system accordingly. The program is set up to be a "performance " apllication .

I guess if they are the not the way to go then they will not sell many. I am going to give it a try as I plan on making changes to my 107 latter in the year.

I would bve intrested in reading other post about this at that site , would you mid posting the address??
 

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Closed Loop

Closed loop fuel is not the best for either fuel economy or preformance. Closed loop by definition is closed loop about a given A/F ratio.
:confused:

Where'd this guy get his degree?
Open loop is cheaper - that is about it!
 

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Does every bike run *best* with the same AFR at a given MAP/throttle position? That is, does my 2002 RK 95" with X cam run the same with a 14.5 AFR at a 60 MAP, 2500 rpm as some other guy's bike w/ same setup same conditions?
 

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What company?

HDWRENCH said:
I just spoke to to company about there clsoed loop system. I have in my hand dyno sheets that they did on a full SE 103 kit 257 cams. 118hp and 127.2 tq. . I will have minew in a month for my 107 as well as a 51 MM TB from them as well. I will enjoy not having to pay for a system and then dyno work as well. Make a change and it will adjust for it. Should be very cool .
 

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IronButt
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Gregg,


Nope it may be close but Ihave seen two custom built engines not just HD either put ona dyno and they get two different results close but not he same. No throw in stock pieces plus after market and you will larger varations. I have loaded maps for a nbike that had the same extras and one ran good the other did not. That is where a system that can make changes would be great.


WWW.horsepowerinc.net
 

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Not that I'm an expert...just know enough to be dangerous based on what I've read. Guess I'm still skeptical that closed loop is the best thing for performance and mileage - independent of the price. I'm assuming that the closed loop system, like the new Twin Tec setup, is programmed to run at specific AFRs based on feedback from the 02 sensor (otherwise if you had to program it what would be the sense....). If the closed loop system is telling the fuel system to pump enough fuel into the rear cylinder run a 13.9 AFR at 60% throttle and 2000 rpm (just picking numbers there), who's to say that two bikes like or need that amount of juice under those same conditions? Now dependent on price....no way I'm springin for the 7 or 800 bucks one of those setups cost. I will be keeping my eyes and ears open to see how they are working out for people though. A lot of folks aren't sold on efi yet either....
 

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IronButt
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6,364 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well the cost is about half of that and you will pay 7-8 after you are done using most other systems.

PCIIIR $339 or so

Dyno tune with EGA $ 300 min


Most shope charge the $300 as a flat rate I have checked around as I need a programer. If the shop does not have the correct dyno 250 with a brake your map may not be very good. I am sure you load some one else's map and drive the bike. But why why go through all the trouble to get great performance and then just load a map that is close??


We ahve a dyno but not the 250 and we do not have a EGA so I can not do my own work.

If thesenew closed loop systems work as well as they say .. Well money talks and you know the rest. $450 fro a tuner that nevers needs to be in a dyno room for tuning or 300+ for a tuner and then pay up again for tuning.

And their are no specific AFRs they will change to the needs of the each engine that what is great a unlike a PCR that has a specific map.
 

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I am now pretty confused (notice I try to make it look like i wasn't before). I have an o2 king classic with a stage 2, incl 203 cams. PC111r w/ custom map. Happy with it.

I am thinking about another upgrade in a few months, was thinking maybe HTTC heads and maybe hotter cams. I had planned to use the local dealer since they are very close, very reliable, and have always stood behind their work. Thats means i will likely use HD parts, although they wouldn't care if i used other stuff.

The question is, will the PC111r work well here. I don't plan to do add'l mods after this. I ride quite a few miles a year and am concerned about rideability and reliability.

Will the new tuners really add much to someone like myself who would never try to adjust it or change settings? Plus, I would need someone who could set it up and tune it initially? I recognize this seems easy for some, but I don't have the tools, place to works, inclination, nor talent (lol).
 

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IronButt
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You will need to re-map on the dyno. One thing that the PCIII does not like is high lift cams, it cause's problems with reversion in the combustion chamber , and into the intake. the PCRIII works off a speed density system . HTCC heads means you will need HTCC pistons as well and the 257 to complete the package. THE PCRIII will work ok for you. Be again it will need to be remapped. Another 3 bills that makes close to 1 k in the tunner and mapping. 700-800 not so bad now.......



Just money and you can't take it with you
 
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