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Harley has survived worse more than once, plus i do see more kids riding HD. Sure Sportsters but still HD.

Indian on the other hand, with their frame issues, my be on its way out in the near future. Thats the industry rumor.
What is the frame issue on the Indian? I didn't know there was a problem other than the heat and that Polaris owns the company.

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Frame necks are fracturing at the head bearings causing loss of control. Many of them from pot holes and collisions that do not damage the fork tubes or wheels is how the story goes.

The DOT has a file open on it but they don't comment on pending investigations.

Regardless of what is the actual cause, a scooter that becomes uncontrollable and ejects the rider because of a frame neck failure is going to end up being recalled. The question is does Indian have the resources to repair or buy back all of these scooters. Or will Polaris split it off and let Indian go bankrupt. Were it not for the corona slow down in DC, I think this would already be headed to the courts.

They have already settled several accidents, and the riders have been prevented from speaking on the issue.

Rumor is that one of the real sticking points is the defective frame section carries the Vin, and the Feds have concerns about all of the scooters getting replacement parts with the correct vin, And that brought up the issue of vin integrity and existing state laws. Evidently some states are not up to speed as regards to replacing sections of frames. Past that, one of the law suits is stating that the collision testing was faked. Some of the scooters that were tested to destruction, on paper, still existed and had been assigned new house serial numbers when the frame necks were replaced. And this is not reflected in the crash data.

And then there is a fellow in the EU who found that most of his frame neck had broken off and basically gravity was holding the scooter together. Part of the crack was much older than the last break which caused the section to fall off. Something that so minor as to leave the scooter in a ride-able condition broke that frame neck. And then the failure continued to get worse. Allegedly for no other reason than bad roads.

Now, I have no idea as to how much of this is true. And I've learned to not trust what I read on the internet as being total truth. But the deal in EU will prevent me from buying an Indian. And I don't see the dozens of photos as all being fake. Some of them show basically undamaged front ends separated from the frames. And regardless of the collision, the frame neck should be stronger than the forks and wheel.
 

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Frame necks are fracturing at the head bearings causing loss of control. Many of them from pot holes and collisions that do not damage the fork tubes or wheels is how the story goes.

The DOT has a file open on it but they don't comment on pending investigations.

Regardless of what is the actual cause, a scooter that becomes uncontrollable and ejects the rider because of a frame neck failure is going to end up being recalled. The question is does Indian have the resources to repair or buy back all of these scooters. Or will Polaris split it off and let Indian go bankrupt. Were it not for the corona slow down in DC, I think this would already be headed to the courts.

They have already settled several accidents, and the riders have been prevented from speaking on the issue.

Rumor is that one of the real sticking points is the defective frame section carries the Vin, and the Feds have concerns about all of the scooters getting replacement parts with the correct vin, And that brought up the issue of vin integrity and existing state laws. Evidently some states are not up to speed as regards to replacing sections of frames. Past that, one of the law suits is stating that the collision testing was faked. Some of the scooters that were tested to destruction, on paper, still existed and had been assigned new house serial numbers when the frame necks were replaced. And this is not reflected in the crash data.

And then there is a fellow in the EU who found that most of his frame neck had broken off and basically gravity was holding the scooter together. Part of the crack was much older than the last break which caused the section to fall off. Something that so minor as to leave the scooter in a ride-able condition broke that frame neck. And then the failure continued to get worse. Allegedly for no other reason than bad roads.

Now, I have no idea as to how much of this is true. And I've learned to not trust what I read on the internet as being total truth. But the deal in EU will prevent me from buying an Indian. And I don't see the dozens of photos as all being fake. Some of them show basically undamaged front ends separated from the frames. And regardless of the collision, the frame neck should be stronger than the forks and wheel.
And that folks is as they say.....the rest of the story.
 

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Ya, well it just frosts my balls when the posers roll through posting the same old tired stuff. "AMF killed Harley"

Harley was dead when AMF bought them. Harley had become a reseller of 2 stroke scooters and mopeds when AMF came in and saved them from bankruptcy.

Everyone who never had much experience AMF Harley's wants to talk about how bad they were. They really were no worse than what Harley had been selling, and at least there were some to buy. Same people like to sell Evo's as "best thing since sliced bread". The hard fact is that Evos never earned the reputation they have today. One of the reasons that everyone and their brothers built Evo clones was the need in the market. Evos were known for 95 cent parts writing them off. And then there is the Evo's don't leak myth. That's a real laugh.

The biggest difference I see over the years is what it takes to fix them. Up through the Shovel heads, you could overhaul a Harley in a farm shop. Then the Evo shows up with jugs that need some TLC when redoing them. People said evo jugs suck. Then electronic ignition arrives about the same time, it takes a different skill set to work on. People say electronic ign sucks. Now its electronic fuel injection, people who don't know dick about it say it sucks, carbs are better. They should just move on. Either school up or find a wrench who doesn't think FI sucks. Past that, they ride better, and are far more dependable now than they were back in the day. In the 70's if 6 guys wanted to make a 200 mile week end run, you had someones ole lady drive the pick up. So you could drag the broken scooter(s) home in the back of it. People talk about fixing them beside the road. Sometimes you did, but often you didn't.

These days I tune em with a lap top. But I can still recall running down the road at full throttle using my left hand on the right bar while I adjusted the main jet with my right hand. Can't say as I really miss it. Don't really miss changing jets 5 times in a row looking for the best setup either. And I damn sure don't miss kicking them. These folks that make kicker videos should make some about when they don't want to start.

Yep, yep and yep. Lotta truth there. Today's bikes (and cars) are a LOT more reliable/dependable than decades past. I do not like what I think of as useless tech - TBW for example, but credit where it's due - the new stuff is more reliable. That said, as one who has repaired on the side of the road - back then there wasn't much to figuring out and repairing what went wrong. Diagnostic ladder was "suck-squeeze-blow." A short was the biggest PIA I ever encountered that wasn't readily fixable. Time goes on and I've become a bigger fan of the cell phone, CC and roadside assistance than tools. YMMV.
 

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I'm worried.

Business is not good, sales keep dropping, massive layoffs. They've already closed one factory and may close another. They are not in a good position to weather a storm for very long. Nothing seems to be getting better with the new CEO.

Not worried... got my bike and for the record HD can care less about your survival. Life is too short, ride and relax.
 

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I'm not worried about Harley staying in business. The name has too much value to die anytime soon. But they could become a much different company, selling 10000 scooters at $60K a year as opposed to selling 40000 scooters at $25K.

I’m holding out for 100,000 to 200,000 bikes at $15k! The prices have gotten totally out of hand! Just my opinion.
 

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I'm worried.

Business is not good, sales keep dropping, massive layoffs. They've already closed one factory and may close another. They are not in a good position to weather a storm for very long. Nothing seems to be getting better with the new CEO.

Not worried but they are in deep trouble, may emerge as a completely different company won’t be like it was , they forgot what made them great
 

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Not worried but they are in deep trouble, may emerge as a completely different company won’t be like it was , they forgot what made them great
...or, they're figuring out that what once made them great in the past will not keep them great today.
 
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Harley markets new bikes with that Olde Tyme look, which worked well when there weren't enough old bikes to go around for sane prices (when I bought mine used bikes were within a few $k of new).

Today the used market is saturated with clean cheap bikes, the demographic bubble has popped as the boomers stop riding, very little interest by new generation...

HD could dry up and blow away tomorrow and there are STILL enough parked used low mileage bikes to satisfy demand. I can put a 124" S&S Evo in my frame, fresh paint, and still be way ahead without mortgaging my house. And I'd have a bike with that Olde Tyme look, because its OLD.
 

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Harley markets new bikes with that Olde Tyme look, which worked well when there weren't enough old bikes to go around for sane prices (when I bought mine used bikes were within a few $k of new).

Today the used market is saturated with clean cheap bikes, the demographic bubble has popped as the boomers stop riding, very little interest by new generation...

HD could dry up and blow away tomorrow and there are STILL enough parked used low mileage bikes to satisfy demand. I can put a 124" S&S Evo in my frame, fresh paint, and still be way ahead without mortgaging my house. And I'd have a bike with that Olde Tyme look, because its OLD.
Well said , totally agree
 

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Harley markets new bikes with that Olde Tyme look, which worked well when there weren't enough old bikes to go around for sane prices (when I bought mine used bikes were within a few $k of new).

Today the used market is saturated with clean cheap bikes, the demographic bubble has popped as the boomers stop riding, very little interest by new generation...

HD could dry up and blow away tomorrow and there are STILL enough parked used low mileage bikes to satisfy demand. I can put a 124" S&S Evo in my frame, fresh paint, and still be way ahead without mortgaging my house. And I'd have a bike with that Olde Tyme look, because its OLD.
If one were to scroll back through the past 10-15 years in motorcycle forums, it would be easy to follow the trend of posts (opinions) changing from "Harley is stuck in the past and is falling behind in the market because of their reluctance to innovate" into "Harley has forgotten their roots and made too many changes".

The bottom line is that the business will survive or not because of their ability to stay in tune with a market, whether that means maintaining an old market or enticing a new one. We have witnessed the change from "maintaining" being the key into "enticing" being the key. Whatever happens, I'm sure the MoCo will do what they think is best for their survival, whether "we" agree or not.

The current generation that is of the age where previous generations thought Harleys were cool seems to be more of the opinion that the boomers just just go away and take their "ways" with them. They think, as a group, that we have destroyed their future and want to do away with anything that reminds them of our generation.
 

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BTW, when Harley goes under, so will the aftermarket geared toward Harley products.
 

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If one were to scroll back through the past 10-15 years in motorcycle forums, it would be easy to follow the trend of posts (opinions) changing from "Harley is stuck in the past and is falling behind in the market because of their reluctance to innovate" into "Harley has forgotten their roots and made too many changes".
So true.
 

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What about that whole supply and demand thing?
Lack of supply doesn't always mean increasing demand, especially if decreasing demand is what drives the situation.
 

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