[troqed]

Thermo-Back there in my memory one of the Big Bloch Fords used a 35 Deg intake, I never understood the reason.
It might have been the 427 or 429 ...not the "f" heads.
Yes, raising ports is always a good thing.

 

[troqed]

Dimples are revolutionary on a Porsche. All of the Porsche guys have them.

Yup, I used to live in the Porsche world, I have stolen a LOT of ideas from them!

Porsche -Along with variable intake lengths...!
So whilst you scoff....
Show me what you have done?
What can you add for flavor here?

 

[Thermodyne]

Thermo-Back there in my memory one of the Big Bloch Fords used a 35 Deg intake, I never understood the reason.
It might have been the 427 or 429 ...not the "f" heads.
Yes, raising ports is always a good thing.

Hard to say, Ford had so many big blocks. And dozens of heads. They actually made a FE head just for Daytona and Degga. 427 Tunnel port. They couldn't run the head on the GT cars, because it was a dog below 5000 rpm.

 

[troqed]

A quote from Joe Mondello.
Here, he gives a LOT away!
Lots can be learned from others if we painstakingly read slowly and add all the parts together from different places.

start
“A few weeks ago, we had three engineers from Harley-Davidson Screaming Eagle Division here for a technical session. They just designed a new 103 head and a 110 head and were quite proud of how well it flowed. We took their head, and in three days time we improved the airflow 52 cfm over their initial design. Out of the 53 cfm that we picked up, 25 cfm was due to changes we made in the valve -seat _angles +alone. That shows you how critical valve seat angles are for maximizing airflow and power,” says Mondello.



“Many cylinder head manufacturers are using single point cutters on a CNC machine to cut their valve seats, and they are not spending much time blending the chambers or doing all the things they really should be doing to make the valve job work properly. That’s actually good for our business because we rework a lot of these cylinder heads, especially Harley heads,” Mondello explains.
end.

Thermo-

I Found it!

Very few valves outside the diesel market have 30-degree seats, but one notable exception is the Boss 429 valve, right. This Manley Boss valve measures 2.280-inch with a 30-degree seat measuring .100-inch wide. There’s also a .060-inch margin

Valve Seats: Will 50- or 55-degree Angles Work For Your Engine?

Very few race engines run a 45-degree valve seat anymore, but that doesn't mean a 50- or 55-degree seat works on the street.

www.enginelabs.com

 

[troqed]

For those that might not know-
Dyno Platform engine-
Almost anyone can build a Dyno slayer engine.
What's Dat? You may ask?
It is the sales dept wanting to sell an item and wants to make some fast money.
They build a dyno-specific engine that will generate power and the "sheet" for proof to sell the gizmo.
It is fitted with just the right parts, loose enough, and maybe not even operating on pump gas.
A super high compression ratio.
People that know no better will see the sheet music and be all enthralled and twitterpated.
They buy the product cause the paper that said this place got "X" amount of power out of it !
Well, he might have, but they cheated! (we have talked about dyno cheat shops B4 with "happy" dynos)
The seller of said product laughs all the way to the bank.
You are holding a turd of an air cleaner or something that they were promoting.
And the engine is torn dwn and used for parts on something else.
It in real life it would not lasted a couple of hours.
BUT, they got the results to sell the turd.

 

[Don Dorfman]

The valve shape conducive to the port geometry varys. There is no perfect valve for them all. The port floor and dimples? I take action to slow the air on the floor. My reference is Harley only and even amongst them there are big variations but they all have a low siamesed short manifold and short ports that make nearly a 90° turn. Seat angles more down in the weeds talking points but nothing earth shattering as far as making significantly more power. Lift and flow potential helps decide the best seat angle. Longevity is a consideration as it relates to valve angle. Low lift flow another forum bandwidth consumer. Then comes getting the geometry of the port right and valve sizes proper. Then down to the fine tuning. Flow demand, important, existing casting and limitations important as far as the approach to correct for the application. IE CVO 103 head, SE Evo ports and a 96CC hemi open chamber vs CVO 110 closer to a open chamber like a dodge hemi LS sized valves, OEM 103 ... M8 4 valve pent roof. All different all need different treatment. I am repeating myself in essence, I will let you guys discuss this.

 

[troqed]

I have something that works here.
Truly there is no big secret to it, but the low RPM, and high Torq are a nice variance compared to what most people get.
The magic is all within the one inch of the valve face.
Most head people know that.
Cams, lifts, carbs, and air filters don't account for much.
just a bunch of hype.
I laugh my arse off every time I see one of those flapper valve air filters, turbo filters?
Idk,
But, no one has reinvented the wheels here, just perhaps where to put the spokes.
Whatever I did, works.
Without an airflow bench...lol
I am very partial to a wet bench.
Cfm numbers may and or may not mean jack crap on the bike.
The dyno tells the story.
To get stuff done one has to give up bolts for velcro, it had to come apart and get adjusted so many times for each variance, or you chase your tail.

I have zero, no interest in becoming a head porter.
AT 70 years young, I need to stay retired as much as I can-I have enough people knocking on my door about things i am supposed to know.
I will let you youngsters figure it all out
In another ten years, the hot market will be rewinding motors for more watts.
We IC people are the tail end of petrol-powered fire breath crap.

 

[troqed]

 

[Thermodyne]

A quote from Joe Mondello.
Here, he gives a LOT away!
Lots can be learned from others if we painstakingly read slowly and add all the parts together from different places.

start
“A few weeks ago, we had three engineers from Harley-Davidson Screaming Eagle Division here for a technical session. They just designed a new 103 head and a 110 head and were quite proud of how well it flowed. We took their head, and in three days time we improved the airflow 52 cfm over their initial design. Out of the 53 cfm that we picked up, 25 cfm was due to changes we made in the valve -seat _angles +alone. That shows you how critical valve seat angles are for maximizing airflow and power,” says Mondello.



“Many cylinder head manufacturers are using single point cutters on a CNC machine to cut their valve seats, and they are not spending much time blending the chambers or doing all the things they really should be doing to make the valve job work properly. That’s actually good for our business because we rework a lot of these cylinder heads, especially Harley heads,” Mondello explains.
end.

Thermo-

I Found it!

Very few valves outside the diesel market have 30-degree seats, but one notable exception is the Boss 429 valve, right. This Manley Boss valve measures 2.280-inch with a 30-degree seat measuring .100-inch wide. There’s also a .060-inch margin
View attachment 272812

Valve Seats: Will 50- or 55-degree Angles Work For Your Engine?

Very few race engines run a 45-degree valve seat anymore, but that doesn't mean a 50- or 55-degree seat works on the street.

www.enginelabs.com

OK you are talking about seat face angles. When talking about raised ports and angles, the angle is referencing the valve stem. By leaning them back at the port, you can improve flow. In that photo of the 292 Chevy casting you'll notice that the intake guides have been replaced, that's because they were tilted an additional 4 degrees. That was about as far as you could go on them and not develop cracks between the seats with 2.06/1.60 valves. They also were getting pretty thin in valve spring seat.

The valve you have in the photo is from a Ford Hemi. And valve shrouding was not a big issue on them. People also use those low angle seat on the old wedge motors because of the flat head face.

Ford 429 Hemi Head

64 409/425hp wedge head

You wont get good results from those seat angles on most newer pushrod V8's because the chamber wall shrouds the valve.

 

[Uncle Salty]

View attachment 272813

Dimples might help if you have a golf ball in the intake port but I'd just remove the golf ball.

 

[troqed]

I have not a clue thermo-
I have loved Ford's way of doing things since the GT40, Who could not/??
The purest car if there ever was one!
The seat angle is what is weird compared to most on the Big block
The raised ports in most anything are the wave,, if room for them.
One thing i learned a long time ago from chevy and Porsche is the width and the placement.

 

[troqed]

PS
Once we tried moving the guides on a shovel so as to get more lift without interference.
The nuances of valve angles per application is the quandary to deal with.
Then EVO came along....lost interest ( in the shovel )

 

[Thermodyne]

PS
Once we tried moving the guides on a shovel so as to get more lift without interference.
The nuances of valve angles per application is the quandary to deal with.
Then EVO came along....lost interest ( in the shovel )

The old school trick with Shovelheads was to weld the chambers up so they looked kind of like Evo heads. And then run pistons that only had about a 3/16 dome on them. Made for better flame propagation and gave you some quench to help with detonation.

 

[troqed]

Sounds correct to me-
Back in the "day", there was no internet for instant information such as now ..better, and sometimes worse.
We were left on our own until the next issue of your favorite rag came out on a monthly saga.
Sometimes there was something helpful in there with Bob Bitchen or some traveling nomadic author of not much.
I hardly knew a quench from an inch!
but, we all preserver through the University of Hard Knocks.
Win some lose some.

 

[Thermodyne]

Sounds correct to me-
Back in the "day", there was no internet for instant information such as now ..better, and sometimes worse.
We were left on our own until the next issue of your favorite rag came out on a monthly saga.
Sometimes there was something helpful in there with Bob Bitchen or some traveling nomadic author of not much.
I hardly knew a quench from an inch!
but, we all preserver through the University of Hard Knocks.
Win some lose some.

Ya, no internet. So you had to read and actually hang out with people who knew. There were no experts banging on keyboards in gandma's basesment back then.

A little something from back in the day. When leaded hightest gasoline went away in 1986, there were a lot of performance Shovelhead riders left hung out to dry. The big hemi head chambers thrived on lead. And when it went away, spark knock became a real issue. There weren't as many built up scooters back then, nothing like today. But the Harley's that were built were still mostly Shovels. And people really scrambled around looking for solutions. A lot of trial and error, being repeated by a lot of people. Just because a) the general public was not a knowledgeable about engine craft back then. And b) information just didn't get disseminated very well.

 

[troqed]

Yes, , I had troubles too.
With very little info to be had!!
The 10.5 CR in hot weather just sucked.
I even double plugged it and ran two sets of points.
Two condensers.
Things are MUCH more EZ now!
Plus , yes we do have a lot of help from the keyboard xperts to nag us along.
I was learning valve geometry from an old-school guy that ran dry Sioux!
he gave me a 45 min lesson and said I was on my own!
WOW
The university of hard Knocks ........LOL

 

[Don Dorfman]

Do you all use the math for flow density as apart of your porting?

No I use Pipemax and Flowpro software and pito probes

 

[troqed]

Kelly Johnson is way ahead of all.
He could see air without seeing it .
Again we can learn a lot by relearning what is known
Study his engines and we see what he did to cheat the airflow

the same is true for ports, just smaller.

 

[troqed]

The essence here is - "if we are trying to use the standard refined but very tired mono port ."- Then we are just trying to use one gear for all speeds.
Now, -If we want to sound important-
We can talk balls, CFM, laminar flow, flow benches, wet benches, and the complete linage and dexterity of the vernacular, and choosing nice important-sounding words. (to make ourselves at least appear important.)
BUT, we will be forever and ever be in "that" one linear gear.
Not even a Powerglide.
We can call it the "stupid gear."
Now, That gear can be refined to go above, and below standard limitations, but, it will always be the one singular mono simplistic gear..
One speed.
One application.
Yamaha, Porsche, and many others have followed Kelly. There is absolutely no way around it, or him!
If we have not tumbled to this conclusion, then we should be flipping burgers somewhere or something as simple. Have We have followed the masses right to hail off the cliff ??
Not very brilliant.
Monolithic.
At least a Powerglide had two gears! LOL
One has to get out of the box, as doing the same thing over and over again.......expecting different results, is ?

 

[Don Dorfman]

An example of just one piece of data used to determine the proper CSA of ports based on demand.