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I have a power commander on my 02 rg. I have heard from some folks that over time strange fualt codes show up on pc equiped bikes. You also have mentioned that over time delphi bikes will see probs. Is there a short answer to why? I had a pc on my TL1000 and it was great, so far it's working well on my stage 1 setup but I am going 95 and headquarters heads and s&s gears and cams and am going to be needing good FI tuning. The work is being done at a pc tuning centre so it will be dyno tuned and all that but "over time?" Thanks.
 

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Hard to say why, it just seems that way.

My personal take on it is that the party line that the PCIIIr just modifies the signal after the ECM is not entirely correct. My argument is that even if it were true you still have all the sensor inputs going into the PC harness, thru the PC even if the signals are just bridged and thru the PC out harness into the ECM. If you consider that some of the signals are measured in mV and the lifeblood signal from the CPS is about 1VAC just the added voltage drop potential might be enough to cause a problem. This is a best case scenario.
Now add the extreme sensitivity of the Delphi as far as setting codes.
Add the speculation that the PC either defeats or comes close to defeating the ionization feature.

Some time back we had some conversations with Mark Dobeck who is the guy that came up with the thing and posed the questions. He did not confirm or deny, but his reaction though very subtle was enough for me.

The PC has the advantage that with the software on the 250 dyno you can build a fuel curve, but the disadvantage is all of the above. You still have to build the ignition map manually.

I just believe the newer DFO also engineered by Mark that truly is invisible to the ECM is the better answer if all you want to do is add fuel.

If you want full control of both fuel and ignition the HD EFI tuner is the way to go, as nothing stays on the bike, it's all on the ECM's EEPROM. Sure you have to program it manually, but it still is the way to go.

The tuner software also gives you some insight into the programming tables of the Delphi system, and they do differ from what everyone previously thought.

The PC works much better on the MM system because it is much less code sensitive and most other EFI systems much more closely resemble the MM then the Delphi except perhaps the Motronic on the BMW's.

If you already have the thing you don't have much to lose, use it and down the road if you have a problem you can go for the newer stuff and hopefully it will be much further developed. I just would not buy a PC for a Delphi today.
All this stuff keeps changing almost daily, it's hard to nail down an answer without taking the time frame in consideration as a few weeks from now the answer might be different, all you can do is work with what you got today.
 

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Hippo- have you played with the harley Tuner enough to know if it can be set-up or tweaked by someone without special equipment? With a PC I would pick a map and download......how would i set up my bike if i got the Harley Tuner.....do they provide any "starter" maps?
 

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Should not be a problem.

It comes with all the stage maps that were released at the time of the tuner release built into the software, so in effect you are also buying all the HD stage flashes.
There is no reason custom maps can not be shared via e-mail once we have a database built.
 

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Hippo, is this HD tuner a new or special set up that I can get from Harley? Or is it just the computer that the dealer uses to flash the ECM for specific mods? I was thinking that a Power Commander might be my only option, but if Harley has one that is better for the Delphi system, I'd use that. Thanks for the info..
 

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Hippo, I found the kit in my accy. catalog. It sounds like the dealer or a competent shop is best to set this up, is that within the skills of a good cycle dyno equipped facility, or do they need to be familiar with this particular system?
 

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At this point no one is familiar with it. We are all learning, some just learn slower then others.

One shot in the dark would be to go to the Powercommander site and see if there is a autorized tuning center nearby. Anyone that knows the PC software can think himself into the EFI tuner software pretty easy.
Maybe chocolate and vanilla ice cream, but in the end it's still ice cream.
While ideally you would have both tuning knowledge and good computer literacy, it is getting to the point where someone that is very good with a computer can maybe make up for some tuning knowledge.
At this point in time the overwhelming factor is the willingness to invest time to get it right, and this is the reason I think many owners might be able to do a better job.
This is the problem dealers have, if they are able to find some old timer with a lot of tuning knowledge odds are he will not be computer literate, and the young kids with good computer knowledge don't have the hands on mechanical experience.
The few that have both don't need a regulated and politicized work environment. You will find they generally run their own place.
 

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OK Hippo, worst case scenario, if I can't find anyone in my area, if I ship my bike to you, can you work this deal? I'm sort of desperate but really want a solution. My VTX, with 100+ HP and torque close to that can be rolled on hard from 1000 rpm with no problem, but my Harley can't be given any hard throttle until 3000 rpm. The dealer tells me that that's what HD factory tech tell them. The solution is "change your riding style..." Pretty tough to believe. I'm serious about the question about sending the bike to you, what do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
HIPPO said:
At this point no one is familiar with it. We are all learning, some just learn slower then others.

One shot in the dark would be to go to the Powercommander site and see if there is a autorized tuning center nearby. Anyone that knows the PC software can think himself into the EFI tuner software pretty easy.
QUOTE]

So I asked about the hd tuner at my local pc tuning centre. The response was basicaly you will be left with whatever is the closest map to your bike and the mods you have made just like you would downloading powercomander maps for your config. The difference being the pc could be tuned with the 250 dyno to best work with your specific bike. Also that knowing Harley more in depth programing was not likely to be forthcoming. Maybe I am being fed a line?
 

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So I asked about the hd tuner at my local pc tuning centre. The response was basicaly you will be left with whatever is the closest map to your bike and the mods you have made just like you would downloading powercomander maps for your config. The difference being the pc could be tuned with the 250 dyno to best work with your specific bike. Also that knowing Harley more in depth programing was not likely to be forthcoming. Maybe I am being fed a line?

No the statement as written is correct. They are just leaving a bunch of stuff out.
1. The dyno can only build a fuel curve, the ignition table still has to be built by hand.
2. The tuner leaves nothing on the bike eliminating the possibility of false codes.
3. The tuner also gives you a diagnostic tool that gives you independence from a dealers.
4. The PC has to be removed from the bike for dealer diagnostic equipment being able to communicate with the bike.
5. Many dealers are not able to diagnose PC conditions, or use the PC as an excuse to avoid problem bikes, if you have a problem on the road it can be a huge issue. The EFI tuner is all HD and integrated with the bike so this point is moot.

Don't get me wrong the PC can work well, but on Delphi bikes there is more risk then with the MM bikes.
 

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OK Hippo, worst case scenario, if I can't find anyone in my area, if I ship my bike to you
If that's what you want to do, it's your money.
From time to time we have people ship bikes to us, but they generally involve complete engine builds and are blank check sort of deals. Shipping a bike cross country twice for a minor tuning issue is a little extreme, but it's up to you. I would require complete freedom to use whatever components I choose to use to correct the issue.
It would be much better if you were to ride the thing down here and hang around for a day or two.
 

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Hippo, unfortunately, as much as I'd like to ride down (which would be a perfect vacation!) I don't have the time available from work to do it. I'd like to go into this possibility a little more in depth with you. Is it easier if I e-mail you with some questions?
 

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Sure it is better to discuss it off line. In order to assure your expectations are not unrealistic some very pointed questions might have to be asked.
Just read another post from you defining the state of the bike, and it might be necessary to go into the engine to adress your concerns as much as possible.

A Stage 2 engine will not pull from 1000 rpm cleanly, not even a stock engine will do that unless it is in first gear.
 
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