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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Picked up my 06 Road King Custom on Monday. Wheile I was out riding around I noticed that there seem to be a hesitation when letting off the throttle at around 50mph. Also it seemed to idle rough and vibrate quite alot at idle. Well I went back to the dealer and told them about it. They said to bring it in but they might not be able to get to it for a few days. Not happy. Well 22 hours after delivery it was back at the dealer. Stopped by the next day and they hadn't even looked at it. So I got the GM involved and it was looked at first thing Thursday.

All of the techs and the service mgr. rode it and said it ran fine. But they also said there was an injector recall. That doesn't make a whole lotta sense. Well they had already ordered the injectors but told me I could take the bike until it came in. Well on the way home I noticed that the idle is getting more rough, the hesitation is getting worse and now it is backfiring ocassionally. But it is "running fine". A buddy of mine rode it and he said it felt like he was on his old Knucklehead. This is not what I expected from a RK and I am almost positive this is not normal.

Anyone have a similar problem and what was the fix. If the techs think it is "running fine" then what exactly do they expect replacing the injectors to do.
 

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First, it is not an injector "recall", but HD has authorized installing the different injectors on bikes with a rideability problem. In 06, HD used different injectors and manifold from previous years and as it apparently turns out, some bikes wouldn't run well. So they've come out with a different injector. It may help your bike run slightly better. (Emphasis on slightly)

If ALL of those guys rode your bike and says its running fine, it probably is. They would have no reason to tell you otherwise. Believe it or not, the service department is not "out to get you", or to treat you like crap.

When we have a complaint such as yours, we will ride the bike. If there appears to be something wrong, we say "man, something is wrong". And we'll get it fixed. But in many cases, the complaint is coming from someone who has NEVER ridden a Harley, maybe bought a Harley after years of riding *** bikes. We get LOTS of complaints, especially about stock sportsters. And yes, they ALL ride like that !!! (sporties I'm talking about here).

With the big twin rubber mounted bikes, yes, there is LOTS of vibration at idle. Just get off the bike and look at the engine jumping back in forth in the frame. It's like it's going to jump out on the ground. But once you start moving, that goes away.

Surely the dealership wouldn't mind starting a few more Road Kings up and letting you sit on them to see if they feel/sound the same way?

Also, stock bikes really run like crap anyway. For the size of the motor, the stock air cleaner and pipes really "choke" the motor back. Air flow in and out is limited. Not HDs fault, its an EPA thing. It's the nature of the beast. Not sure if you've already changed them out, but I'd suggest doing that. I'd advise using a SERT, but they're not available for 06s yet, but that's another set of questions.

As far as "putting you off"... every bike that they are working on, is owned by a customer who thinks they should be the number one priority. They already have a shop full of bikes, with a full schedule and people expecting their bikes back. While you ARE important to them, they usually won't drop everything unless it's a dire emergency. Especially after riding it and thinking there is no problem.

I understand your frustration, in that you've just plunked a lot of money down for a new bike. You have expecations of what the bike was going to do, and it's not meeting that.

Anyway, lots of luck with getting it all worked out, I hope you get taken care of.
 

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ChopperDude said:
In 06, HD used different injectors and manifold from previous years and as it apparently turns out, some bikes wouldn't run well. So they've come out with a different injector. It may help your bike run slightly better. (Emphasis on slightly)

I'd advise using a SERT, but they're not available for 06s yet, but that's another set of questions.
The different injector that you talk about is the same injector that they are using in the CVO bikes. The injector seems to make a big difference when installed on bikes that run like crap. It makes such a big difference that HD has the whole production line using them now. They have the SERT for the 06 bikes, my bike is a 06 which has the SE air filter, SE mufflers and has been tuned using the SERT. Right now its tough to find the SERT in stock because people are going bug sh!t buying them up because they are rumored to be not produced any more. The dealers are having a hay day because production on the SERT is not going to be stopped and people are busting down the doors to snap them up.
 

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Well.........a new bike that hestitates and back firing isn't what i would call normal. Having said that......the vibration is pretty normal. Especially if you still have the stock bars. The beach bars are wide and long and make the vibration more obvious at idle......Once up to speed it should go away. I've heard that Mike's service department has gotten their act together these last few years.....hopefully...........
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hammy71 said:
Well.........a new bike that hestitates and back firing isn't what i would call normal. Having said that......the vibration is pretty normal. Especially if you still have the stock bars. The beach bars are wide and long and make the vibration more obvious at idle......Once up to speed it should go away. I've heard that Mike's service department has gotten their act together these last few years.....hopefully...........

I know the vibration is supposed to be there. It was there on the RKC AND Street Glide that I test rode. We started up a few on the dealer floor and they did too. This one just seems to vibrate ALOT more and harder. It vibrates harder than my biddies 05 Fatboy, another buddies 97 Heritage and even harder (believe it or not) than any of the four Sportys (71-05) I have owned.

As far as the hsitation and backfiring obviously they are not mormal. The hesitation almost feels like if you are riding a carbed bike and getting ready to switch to reserve. Just feels like it isn't getting enough fuel.

msocko3: If they are replacing the injectors should these be the ones I should expect to get???

ChopperDude: I didn't expect them to drop everything and get right on my bike. But I figure getting a brand new bike back to the owner would be a priroity. Hell if it pissed me off enough I could have been a real d**k and just cancelled the whole deal. The service writer just pissed me off when she said she was "doing me a favor" by getting it in. I don't consider getting a brand new bike (22 hours old) back in a timely fashion as doing me a favor. She originally said they would probably have it for a week. That is unacceptable IMO.
 

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ChopperDude said:
First, it is not an injector "recall", but HD has authorized installing the different injectors on bikes with a rideability problem. In 06, HD used different injectors and manifold from previous years and as it apparently turns out, some bikes wouldn't run well. So they've come out with a different injector. It may help your bike run slightly better. (Emphasis on slightly)

If ALL of those guys rode your bike and says its running fine, it probably is. They would have no reason to tell you otherwise. Believe it or not, the service department is not "out to get you", or to treat you like crap.

When we have a complaint such as yours, we will ride the bike. If there appears to be something wrong, we say "man, something is wrong". And we'll get it fixed. But in many cases, the complaint is coming from someone who has NEVER ridden a Harley, maybe bought a Harley after years of riding *** bikes. We get LOTS of complaints, especially about stock sportsters. And yes, they ALL ride like that !!! (sporties I'm talking about here).

With the big twin rubber mounted bikes, yes, there is LOTS of vibration at idle. Just get off the bike and look at the engine jumping back in forth in the frame. It's like it's going to jump out on the ground. But once you start moving, that goes away.

Surely the dealership wouldn't mind starting a few more Road Kings up and letting you sit on them to see if they feel/sound the same way?

Also, stock bikes really run like crap anyway. For the size of the motor, the stock air cleaner and pipes really "choke" the motor back. Air flow in and out is limited. Not HDs fault, its an EPA thing. It's the nature of the beast. Not sure if you've already changed them out, but I'd suggest doing that. I'd advise using a SERT, but they're not available for 06s yet, but that's another set of questions.

As far as "putting you off"... every bike that they are working on, is owned by a customer who thinks they should be the number one priority. They already have a shop full of bikes, with a full schedule and people expecting their bikes back. While you ARE important to them, they usually won't drop everything unless it's a dire emergency. Especially after riding it and thinking there is no problem.

I understand your frustration, in that you've just plunked a lot of money down for a new bike. You have expecations of what the bike was going to do, and it's not meeting that.

Anyway, lots of luck with getting it all worked out, I hope you get taken care of.
The reason that the new mantra from the dealers to "change injectors" is that almost ten years after HD has put on EFI, most dealerships still have no idea how to tune them or diagnose them. The wider pattern / higher flowing injectors simply add more fuel to a lean map and, as Mr. chopperdude said, sometimes help a bike's inherent lean condition and the running problems that come with that. So instead of using the precise method of going into the ECU and adjusting the fuel the correct way, they just throw more fuel at the whole thing with the higher gram per second squirts. Seems odd, as we and scores of other shops have been able to tune stockers to 117's (and higher) with those same old fashioned lousy injectors and manifolds for years. And sure have done a lot of business helping guys out that have gotten frustrated with the "nothing's wrong" story or "can't fix it" story, or "buy the SERT and tune it yourself" story. Don't know if Monstermile is a new rider or not, but if the "techs" are telling him that nothing is wrong on a bike that is jerking and backfiring, and you're trying to tell him that the rubber mounts have a LOT of vibration (as compared to his buddies assessment that it feels like an ol' knuckle), no wonder he is frustrated. Especially when there is "nothing wrong" but they are going to see if the new injectors will help. As for having to wait for service, this guy spent good money for a bike that is supposed to run correctly out of the box, and now he has to wait in line behind the oil changes and other service work because they delivered a bike that ain't right??? The right thing to do if you don't want to "treat him like crap" is to get the thing running right, NOW.

Anyway, Monstermile, there is a better than even chance that you are not getting into the idle parameters in the ECU because the TPS is not set in the correct voltage range and / or the IAC has not settling back into the correct step range for correct idle air. This puts the entire fuel and timing maps off by a column or two and you get what you are getting. It also may be YOU that is causing the problem. BE SURE that you are waiting about 5 seconds or so after turning on the ignition switch so that the IAC can reach the correct number of steps for 0 readback otherwise the ECU will incorrectly read that as the 0 point for the entire time you are riding until you start it again. The payback for you pissing it off will be a ride like you describe. This may be the reason the techs are noticing nothing but it should have been the first thing that they told you about in this situation as it is very common. I guess the the new injectors fix is the first thing that came to mind instead though!!!
 

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Monstermile said:
... I don't consider getting a brand new bike (22 hours old) back in a timely fashion as doing me a favor. She originally said they would probably have it for a week. That is unacceptable IMO.
I agree. However, part of the buying experience is asking the dealer "Can I see your service manager?" and then quiz him/her on how they handle warranty issues and service requests. If they say no priorties are given, get in line, and wait a week; then you know.
If more of us did that, and service became a deal ender, then service would improve.-2$en#e-
 

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Monstermile said:
msocko3: If they are replacing the injectors should these be the ones I should expect to get???
Yep, I had some of the issues with my bike. It was stalling when cold and at times it didn't start real well. They tossed in the 25 deg injectors and uploaded a different map with my SERT and off I went. I hasn't stalled, popped or failed to start on the 1st push of the starter button since the changes were made.
 

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Monstermile said:
The service writer just pissed me off when she said she was "doing me a favor" by getting it in. I don't consider getting a brand new bike (22 hours old) back in a timely fashion as doing me a favor. She originally said they would probably have it for a week. That is unacceptable IMO.
Unacceptable IMO, also.
On my way home from picking up my ultra last August, one of the 1/4" bolts that hold the saddlebag bracket fell out.
I called the sales guy to let him know, and that i'd be up in a couple days...I had a non-plated one in my parts bin.
ten minutes later the service dept. called for directions to send a tech 15 miles to my house. not neccesary, as i was going to work. they told me to come in at my convenience.

I had the lean issues also...got the injectors...my ecm was sent back to the factory, as it was one of the first ones done. made a big improvement...no problems at all since.
 

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Notice a lot of guys getting the magic injectors AND the ECU re-flashed. Trust me, it's the ECU programming that is getting you right, not the injector change out. Hope you are not paying for these injectors, because working the fuel and timing in the map tables is all that is required to get you right. Now I'm SURE that the MOCO wouldn't be charging for un-necessary parts when all that is required is correct tuning thru the EFI management system....would they?
 

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Monstermile said:
Picked up my 06 Road King Custom on Monday. Wheile I was out riding around I noticed that there seem to be a hesitation when letting off the throttle at around 50mph. Also it seemed to idle rough and vibrate quite alot at idle. Well I went back to the dealer and told them about it. They said to bring it in but they might not be able to get to it for a few days. Not happy. Well 22 hours after delivery it was back at the dealer. Stopped by the next day and they hadn't even looked at it. So I got the GM involved and it was looked at first thing Thursday.

All of the techs and the service mgr. rode it and said it ran fine. But they also said there was an injector recall. That doesn't make a whole lotta sense. Well they had already ordered the injectors but told me I could take the bike until it came in. Well on the way home I noticed that the idle is getting more rough, the hesitation is getting worse and now it is backfiring ocassionally. But it is "running fine". A buddy of mine rode it and he said it felt like he was on his old Knucklehead. This is not what I expected from a RK and I am almost positive this is not normal.

Anyone have a similar problem and what was the fix. If the techs think it is "running fine" then what exactly do they expect replacing the injectors to do.
If your bike was built after Feb 13, 2006 it should have the 25 degree injectors, prior to that it could have the 8 degree injectors. A Harley-Davidson service bulletin, M-1185, came out Feb 20, 2006 & explains the cold start and/or driveability problems. You can check by looking on the left side at the rear injector, the number can be read with a flashlight. The 25* is 27709-06A & will also have C01 25 DEG stamped on the injector. The 8* is 27625-06.
I have a 2006 Ultra built in early Jan & it ran terrible, similar to some of your descriptions. I thought it was just due to all of the EPA things. I was getting a 95" build a few days after I bought the bike & just blew it off to all of the EPA requirements. After the engine & exhaust mods & dyno tune it ran better/stronger but still had hesitation in acceleration & deceleration, sometimes hard to start after sitting at work all day or overnight, & ocassionally want to stall pulling away from a stop. This all happened just prior to the service bulletin M-1185. The dealer installed the 25 degree injectors, dyno tuned it AGAIN & it is running GREAT.
There are a lot of posts on the injector issue/problems on this forum. There has been dozens of folks on this forum (msocko, kratc, & xkvator on this thread)that had problems & changing the injectors fixed the problem. There are also dozens with the 8* injectors & their bikes run fine. So go figure. There are even a few that think it is nothing to do with the injectors at all. So go figure.
 

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KRATC said:
There are also dozens with the 8* injectors & their bikes run fine. So go figure. There are even a few that think it is nothing to do with the injectors at all. So go figure.
Your right, this is such a hit and miss problem. My dad has a 06 Ultra that he picked up 3 weeks before I got mine, he has no issues right now. I'd bet a good FI tuner could tame a good many of the ill running bikes, I think the MoCo found it easier to swap out the injectors and change the map on their dime rather than have someone try and tune it out. As we all either know or have read not all dealers have a good FI tuner.
 

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msocko3 said:
I'd bet a good FI tuner could tame a good many of the ill running bikes, I think the MoCo found it easier to swap out the injectors and change the map on their dime rather than have someone try and tune it out. As we all either know or have read not all dealers have a good FI tuner.
@gree: They fixed the problem at the minimal cost to them...swapping parts/downloading a program, which every tech would be able to do.

I understand the 25* injectors atomize the fuel better...into smaller droplets & that makes the fuel charge ignite easier & more complete...
 

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i took my 06 dyna in for the new injectors. before doing so, i installed my stock ecm and stock air cleaner.
i asked service manager to not do any flash to the ecm as i wanted to see if the injectors added any fuel.
the bike ran smooth on the 30 mile trip home. once cooled, i pulled the plugs and they were light brown ( i would consider the plug reading great if i had jetted a carbed bike.)
told the manage that the injectors do add fuel and asked what the flash would have done. he relied: it would take out a little fuel and back out some timing as well.
ok, so i put around 100 miles on the bike to see if problems would arise and all was well-------------untill it started running rough, backfire through intake and sometimes the rear cylinder would drop out and back in again.

suspecting a bad electrical connection, i used a bic pen to wiggle the rear injectoe connector while bike was running, and could make the miss appear and disappear.
pulled the tank, inspected the wiring and found the wire to be broken inside he insulation. soldered and heat shrinked and all is well again.

now i have reinstalled thundermax and high flow A/C , retuned and no noticable performance gain afterwards,( feels just like before injectors were replaced).

in summary, maybe some bikes have the broken wire (moco zip ties it so tight to the chassis that it is not able to bear the engine wiggling back and forth) and are getting the injector change for the wrong reasons.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/
 

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KRATC said:
If your bike was built after Feb 13, 2006 it should have the 25 degree injectors, prior to that it could have the 8 degree injectors. A Harley-Davidson service bulletin, M-1185, came out Feb 20, 2006 & explains the cold start and/or driveability problems. You can check by looking on the left side at the rear injector, the number can be read with a flashlight. The 25* is 27709-06A & will also have C01 25 DEG stamped on the injector. The 8* is 27625-06.
I have a 2006 Ultra built in early Jan & it ran terrible, similar to some of your descriptions. I thought it was just due to all of the EPA things. I was getting a 95" build a few days after I bought the bike & just blew it off to all of the EPA requirements. After the engine & exhaust mods & dyno tune it ran better/stronger but still had hesitation in acceleration & deceleration, sometimes hard to start after sitting at work all day or overnight, & ocassionally want to stall pulling away from a stop. This all happened just prior to the service bulletin M-1185. The dealer installed the 25 degree injectors, dyno tuned it AGAIN & it is running GREAT.
There are a lot of posts on the injector issue/problems on this forum. There has been dozens of folks on this forum (msocko, kratc, & xkvator on this thread)that had problems & changing the injectors fixed the problem. There are also dozens with the 8* injectors & their bikes run fine. So go figure. There are even a few that think it is nothing to do with the injectors at all. So go figure.
Like I said....... the tuning was also done in all cases along with the injectors. The injectors are being used because they flow a little more fuel. However, if the techs knew how to get into and correctly adjust the idle tables, they could do the same thing with the stock injectors. Everything you need is in the SERT to tune for most bikes. Atomize the fuel better???...... if that was the case the bikes that came out of the box with carbs would not even run if you believe that story!! There are VERY, VERY, few techs that know how to really tune with the SERT or get into the ECU to CORRECTLY adjust fuel and timing, never mind getting onto the idle control tables to adjust for bad idle and low speed running. Again, if they are supplying them for free, why not??? But we all know that they are using this "fix" as a cure all for many EFI problems for current and older bikes. Noticed that story come into the shop a bunch of times over the winter with guys that were told by the local dealers that this would solve their problems..... and they were attaching a good price along with it. Some came in running a little better, some had no change at all, some told the dealers to shove the new injectors. All of them left the shop with no problems and no returns.... new injectors or not. So go figure!
 
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