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XLIII
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10,078 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
HDWRENCH (or Anybody Else), Race Tuner Help, Please...

Since you teach this stuff. I'd like to pick your brain a little.
Apparently there was a change in programming for '06, as several folks I've spoken with on the board and off say their '06 bikes behave like the injectors shut down during decel, then "catch" again around 2k, or, if they get back on the throttle before that, there is a jerk when things kick back in.

I, along with several others, have noticed the same thing w/ '05s that have been programmed with the 4.50 version of the SERT software. I figured, no sweat, I'll just redo it with 4.12.
I did, and no difference! Does the 4.50 version write to something that 4.12 can't overwrite, or what's going on here? It hasn't caused me any problems apart from being annoying, but several folks have mentioned bobbles when slowing down around corners for traffic lights and such.

Talked to the Mother Ship today, and they said it is obviously a tuning issue w/ the decel enleanment table, that it was NOT the software.
Yeah, right.
The thing was fine w/ the same decel enleanment numbers in 4.12, and it's crap in 4.50.
I don't really want to waste any time chasing something w/ decel enleanment, unless they changed something in how those numbers were interpreted that they ain't talking about.

Thanks in Advance!
 

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05 FLHTCI
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345 Posts
What were the results?

Megaglide,

Just curious if the other things like reflashing back to stock by dealer worked or were tried yet?

Did you speak with Matt Gross from MMG? This is what he does for a living.

David
 

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XLIII
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10,078 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I don't want to pester the dealer unless I can get a first-hand "I've done it and it worked" answer from somebody. They've bent over backwards for me, and listened to what I've learned on here, and if I go in with a "fix" that doesn't work out that costs them time to try, my stock drops in their eyes, and I'll have wasted my time and theirs.

I called MMG Mgmt, talked to Jay, and all I got there was that the 4.50 software was crap, and I'd need to talk to Matt. Jay gave me Matt's e-mail, as he's in DEN teaching a class at the moment. Jay said he checks in regularly, but it's been a few days, so I'm not too hopeful of help from that quarter. I've e-mailed several folks who I thought would know, and I thought I was all polite and whatnot, but no replies (much less answers) from anywhere. I don't know if nobody knows, nobody's talking, or maybe it's my breath or something. Heck, a brief "piss off" reply would at least let me know to move on on my own... :badmood:

On my slight ping during warmup I got some help from Doc and then spent several hours poring through stuff and looking at 3-D timing curve graphs and just making map changes on my laptop to see the effects on the graph and think I'm a map or three away from having that issue resolved without taking a performance hit.
I'm always willing to do the work and learn, but it's nice to have some well thought-out input from someone willing to give a little advice after taking a minute to actually understand the problem.
Heck, I'll even vent a little here...
I'm finally beginning to understand the tendency for some folks to not even bother to help. I've noticed a little trend for some folks on forums to be right there wanting whatever you've got to offer, be it a map, a technique or whatever. Then, as soon as they've got what they wanted, they won't even return an e-mail to let you know how it worked out. My frustration meter is just about to peg.

Edit:
Please don't get me wrong. I am grateful for all the suggestions and "idears" I receive on this stuff. It's just that on some things I really am not willing to "try" something unless I know it'll work. Especially when I have to use up some goodwill at the dealer to do it. The amount of time I have to spend putzing with the bike is insanely small at the moment, and is more often than not stolen from other things that I need to be doing...
 

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07', 04', 03', & 02
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1,099 Posts
I've got an 06 with the 4.50 version of the SERT and have no injector issues on decel. My buddy has an 05 and just put the 4.50 SERT on his bike and he has not experienced any of the issues you are referencing.

Hope this helps
 

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Administrator
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11,242 Posts
I wish I had a difinitive answer for you but all I can give is my best guess. And that falls inline with the stock reflash deal.

I understand what you are saying about not wanting to waste anyones time on it. Maybe you could call the dealer and present it to them the same way you did here? something to the nature of "I don't want to waste your time and this is really just a shot in the dark but several people mentioned that this would be the first thing they would try.....blah blah blah"

If it does work the dealer tech comes out of it a little smarter for his time. If they do it for you out of the kindness of their heart a tip to the mechanic for his time goes along way. I have given a $20 before to a mechanic for a flash that they did for free.

Just some thoughts to add to your list.
 

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Banned
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313 Posts
The SERT only programs the file you pick into the ECM. So if you program your ECM with the same file it will run the same. The thing to watch for is useing a newer base file and adding your modifications to it. There are many other pieces of information in the ECM and they may not play nice with your added adjustments. If you go back and use the same exact files as before with the older version of the software it will run the same as before. What you are talking about is called decel fuel cutoff. This is used to help control emissions and we cannot adjust that in the SERT. What you can adjust is the amount of fuel but not where it happens as that is preset by HD. Reprogramming back to stock then reprogramming with the SERT will not change anything. The guy from MMG is full of it as I and many other have no problems with the software. Could be because they are now pushing another vendors product but who knows.
 

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05 FLHTCI
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345 Posts
What base map did you use on the SERT

Megaglide,

What base map did you use on the 4.12 vs. the 4.50? Just to be clear, you did attempt to reload the 4.12 software and use the original 4.12 map that you had no problems with with 4.12 software, right? I know this is frustrating for you and it would be for me too. Riding time is short this time of year so having to use your off time to mess with the bike instead of riding if frustrating.

Is there a 4.51 software or just 4.50? What is the difference and which were you using?

David
 

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XLIII
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10,078 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
127HD019 base map.
With the new software (4.50 is the newest I'm aware of), there was no choice but to copy-and-paste, as it will not let you upload anything but an .MT6 file. It tells you to copy the info from the tables on your previous map as soon as you try to open an .MT5.
I wouldn't have changed from 4.12, but when that's what the shop that's doing the tuning has on their computer, so that's what I ended up stuck with.

Thank for chiming in, Steve, I appreciate it! To be sure I understand correctly, by doing what the little pop-up dialog box tells us, are we then putting in what was good data from a previous version that will then NOT work well with background info in the new .MT6 map?
 

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Banned
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313 Posts
It's not that it will not work, it is just not the same as before. You may need to make a few adjustments. If you pulled out your old 4.12 disk and loaded it on your PC then loaded your old file you would be right where you were before. The bottom line is every base file is different, copy and pasteing your old modifications will get you very close to where you need to be so I feel the software is telling you what to do in the proper way. As far as I know HD is up to version 4.5.1 but have heard they are going to release 4.5.2 with more calibrations shortly. 4.5.1 only updated for one missing bike but 4.5.2 from what I'm told will just have more base calibrations combinations.
 

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Fuel SYS ENG
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144 Posts
Tech Bulletin from HD regarding this issue......


May 31, 2005
Screamin’ Eagle® Pro EFI Race Tuner
If you are having an issue programming an ECM with the EFI Race Tuner when you are out at the track here are some helpful tips to use:
• Verify that the VIN number stored in the ECM exactly matches the motorcycle. If it is incorrect the EFI Race Tuner will not program the ECM.
• If the motorcycle had a stage calibration downloaded before the EFI Race Tuner was to be installed it may interfere with the programming. In which case you should reflash the ECM with a stock calibration using digital technician. The exception to this would be the chargeable CVO calibrations; these should not interfere with the program.
• Verify that you are downloading the correct calibration for the ECM. The 2001 – 2004 ECM’s use maps that start with 105….., the 2005 ECM calibrations start with 127…..
• If contacting Technical Service for help please have the following information available at time of call….Vehicle Vin #, S.E. Race Tuner software Version, File # you are trying to install, and all information on the Get ECM info screen.

And Remember . . .
Harley-Davidson motorcycles modified with Screamin’ Eagle® Pro EFI Race Tuner must not be used on public roads and in some cases may be restricted to closed course competition. Performance parts identified with the crossed flags symbol in our literature are intended for racing applications only and are not legal for sale or use in California on pollution-controlled vehicles. Alterations of emission related components constitutes tampering under the US EPA guidelines and can lead to substantial fines and penalties.

:coffee:
 

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geezer glides are cool
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381 Posts
bedemonster said:
I've got an 06 with the 4.50 version of the SERT and have no injector issues on decel. My buddy has an 05 and just put the 4.50 SERT on his bike and he has not experienced any of the issues you are referencing.

Hope this helps
I have and 05 that was built im March. I used base map 127LG004-B0.MT6 from my SERT version 4.50 ,build date July 25,2005. I am not experiencing the deceleration issues you are experiencing.

When I get a chance, I'll hook up then post my ECM information. Maybe there's a difference between our modules.
 

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XLIII
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10,078 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Well, y'all have given me some ideas to try, and I thank you.
As to the reflash bulletin, it simply doesn't apply to my bike. It never "had a stage calibration downloaded before the EFI Race Tuner was to be installed", and it takes the uploads from the SERT, I just don't like the bahavior during decel. I've only cut the decel enleanment numbers in the past if there was popping, which I don't have, but that is what I'll try next to see if I get some good results.
 

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XLIII
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10,078 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
OK, here's an update.
I've exhausted all I know to try.
Decel enleanment, zip.
increasing low throttle, high RPM VE, nada.
The accel enrichment numbers aren's enough different from the bagger maps to bother with, so it's not that.
This stuff is really just more annoying than anything, but I rode this bike for 7,000 miles w/ Stage I w/ a dyno tuned SERT bagger map and didn't have these issues. After all is said and done, maybe these issues were always there w/ the map I'm using now, but I just didn't notice them while babying it through break-in.
With that thought in mind, and also bearing in mind that I haven't talked to enough folks for me to consider this a definite trend, it seems that those whose maps are based on a bagger base map instead of a Dyna base map (like mine is) are not having the problem with a "jerk" when they roll the throttle back on after a little deceleration.
Has anyone taken all the data that we have access to and pasted into a bagger map from a Dyna map? I know there are things in the background that we can not see nor access that make some differences, and I'm wondering if I do that whether I'll be better or worse off.

Idears?

Thanks in Advance,
 

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Fuel SYS ENG
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144 Posts
MegaGlide, I have a thought that would sure help with the TS. Can you beg, borrow or steal another ECM and swap them out.

I don't like shotgun maintenace any more then the next guy but I really would like to rule out the ECM.

Thoughts?:hmmm:
 

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XLIII
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10,078 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Problem with that is I'd have to find someone who also has a SERT and a copy of their map so I could restore it.
Good suggestion, though!
 

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Premium Member
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52 Posts
MegaGlide said:
Problem with that is I'd have to find someone who also has a SERT and a copy of their map so I could restore it.
Good suggestion, though!
Hey MegaGlide,

I do not have any of your issues.....I'm using your map.....

I'm gona move the AFR,and VE table data to a touring map because of the timing difference. (Still got a little ping a 3k.) My bike is an 03.
Lou Z.
 

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Premium Member
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louz said:
Hey MegaGlide,

I do not have any of your issues.....I'm using your map.....

I'm gona move the AFR,and VE table data to a touring map because of the timing difference. (Still got a little ping a 3k.) My bike is an 03.
Lou Z.
Acutally....I did copy your data to an 01-04 map....never mind.

LouZ
 

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MegaGlide

Can you explain exactly when this "jerk" occurs...certain RPM, etc? Do you hear it in the exhaust or feel it seat of the pants?

Also another long shot...but have you checked the primary chain slack? When you are unloading and loading this, you can get a pretty good jerk in the pants with too much slack.
 

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Aggie said:
MegaGlide

Can you explain exactly when this "jerk" occurs...certain RPM, etc? Do you hear it in the exhaust or feel it seat of the pants?

Also another long shot...but have you checked the primary chain slack? When you are unloading and loading this, you can get a pretty good jerk in the pants with too much slack.
I'm having that symptom whenever I do a quick deceleration...it's actually a surge, which is disconcerting going into a corner or trying to stop quickly...it actually accelerates for a split second, which doesn't feel that safe...I feel a beginner rider could really get in trouble with this peculiarity...btw, mine's an '06 FLHTI...
 

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Premium Member
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163 Posts
I to have this same problem but thought it was the differance between fuel injected and carb. When I am coming to a stop light and downshift and then let off fuel the bike starts to slow then all of the sudden it will speed back up. It is a very wierd feeling and probaly would be unsafe to an inexperianced rider. My bike is a 06 Roadglide with the complete 95" Harley Big Bore kit with 203 cams and RaceTuner.
 
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