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DHARMA Initiative
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Moved it for ya. ;)
 

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Very interesting good reading. Harley best get it together.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I think it's great! Competiton between manufacturers is always good cause the consumer wins :clap:

IMO Victory has at the very least inspired Harley to use 6 speed transmissions and possibly larger displacement bikes across the line.
 

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azrider said:
Not sure what you mean. Harley sold over 300,000 bikes last year, have a quality product and an aftermarket without peer.

I couldn't agree more. Harley HAS it together. Vic can't even hold Harley's jock strap at this point. After Vic surpasses the 300,000 bike mark then maybe, just maybe, Harley should take notice. Until then, nothing at all for them to worry about. Take the Vic's for what they are...A nice looking, (IMO) powerful, American made alternative to what's out there.

P.S. I ride a Vic. :yes:
 

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How many motorcycles a company sells does not mean they shouldn't keep watch of a smaller manufacturer. Didn't Willie G. say in some interview that he keeps watch of the custom bike shops to see whats new and what's Hot and what not?? Good business always watches the competition, be it small or large. The good ol'USA is full of small businesses taking on larger corps and in some cases winning a share of the market. Furthermore, its almost a necessity for a small manufacturer to make a "better" or "new" product for less money(under msrp) to get noticed and grow. Large companies that don't keep an eye on the smaller competition usually end up losing more market share. I doubt HD is one of those large types of companies that don't watch the competition.
 

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Yep. Apple computer only has a small share of the computer market compared to pc's, but now they've come out gangbusters with their ipod.

You never know.
 

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How many motorcycles a company sells does not mean they shouldn't keep watch of a smaller manufacturer. Didn't Willie G. say in some interview that he keeps watch of the custom bike shops to see whats new and what's Hot and what not?? Good business always watches the competition, be it small or large. The good ol'USA is full of small businesses taking on larger corps and in some cases winning a share of the market. Furthermore, its almost a necessity for a small manufacturer to make a "better" or "new" product for less money(under msrp) to get noticed and grow. Large companies that don't keep an eye on the smaller competition usually end up losing more market share. I doubt HD is one of those large types of companies that don't watch the competition.
I agree but my statement was in response to Harley "getting their act together," It's been together for quite some time.
 

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As far as Victory, they make a nice bike. The Hammer is sharp. Big Dog sells more bikes than Victory at this time but time will tell. I think Victory is on the right track and if they sell more bikes, the aftermarket will start to support them.
 

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azrider said:
I agree but my statement was in response to Harley "getting their act together," It's been together for quite some time.
NP my message was more in response to White flames
After Vic surpasses the 300,000 bike mark then maybe, just maybe, Harley should take notice.
 

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Harley Davidson = The NFL

Victory = Professional Lacrosse


Yeah we realize they are out there, but we not going to change the way we do business just yet because they have a few fans.

How's that for a stupid analogy?????

(But you are right, the 300,000 bike comment was a little strong)

Didn't mean for it to sound like flaming....
 

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I own 2 Harleys and 1 Vic. The Harleys have too many attributes to number. They also have a vastly inferior machine; engine, brakes, frame, handling, etc, etc. On a scale of 1-10, with the Harley being a 10 for finish, the Vic is about an 8. Just depends on what you want. I wanted it all and managed to get it. Just had to buy a couple of bikes to do so.

JMHO, RR
 

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They also have a vastly inferior machine; engine, brakes, frame, handling, etc, etc.
I would have to completely disagree. I owned a Victory TC before my dyna and the frame is not inferior. The handling is not inferior. The brakes are a bit better but then they are dual disks up front as opposed to the single disk of the Harley.

Not sure what you mean about inferior engine. It's about 10 hp more than my dyna. But my dyna weighs 100 lbs less. Certainly enough power for me. How fast a bike goes is not the only consideration to an engine's performance. The HD is reliable, is tourqey, fuel injected and i think, much better looking. So in this regard, I would have to say the engine is not inferior.

My TC was a pig in the corners. It also had an annoying primary gear whine that to me, makes it inferior to the Harley. The front suspension was the worst of any motorcycle I've ever owned. It was horrible. The bars literally rattled as I went over bumps.
 

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apples and oranges

The TC was a pig in the corners???? Try a Road King or an Electraglide.
Either drive like a tank compared to the TC.

You apparently had one of the TC's before they rubber mounted the handlebars. I did too, but for some reason, it never bothered me.

I don't think you can compare a dyna to the TC. I don't know which dyna you have, but the better comparison would be to any Vic otther than the TC or the Hammer. If you have a wideglide, then the Vegas. I only say that cause the rake/trail would make for comparative cornering.
The Dyna Super is a great little bike with the most engine to least weight. I'd say the C would out handle that too.

You hit on a great point though about Harley's engineering matched to the type of bike. Who's to say that people really need the extra tech that Vic brings in a v-twin? If you want performance, why an air cooled v-twin?
From a marketing perspective, I think Vic is way over engineered for the type of bike. I'm not sure potential buyers will appreciate the engineering.
As always it's "what do you want from your v-twin?"


azrider said:
I would have to completely disagree. I owned a Victory TC before my dyna and the frame is not inferior. The handling is not inferior. The brakes are a bit better but then they are dual disks up front as opposed to the single disk of the Harley.

Not sure what you mean about inferior engine. It's about 10 hp more than my dyna. But my dyna weighs 100 lbs less. Certainly enough power for me. How fast a bike goes is not the only consideration to an engine's performance. The HD is reliable, is tourqey, fuel injected and i think, much better looking. So in this regard, I would have to say the engine is not inferior.

My TC was a pig in the corners. It also had an annoying primary gear whine that to me, makes it inferior to the Harley. The front suspension was the worst of any motorcycle I've ever owned. It was horrible. The bars literally rattled as I went over bumps.
 

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Dave,

The person I was responding to didn't give a reference as to comparison of any bikes. He just said "They also have a vastly inferior machine; engine, brakes, frame, handling..." Didn't specify which model, year, etc.

This is an opinion that is stated as fact when it is not.

I owned a TC. I've ridden an Electra Glide and Road King. In my opinion, the Road King corners and handles much better than the TC. It also has a much better suspension.

I don't usually respond to things like this but when he made a blanket statement that the Vic is better in practically every category, I had to respond because my experiences lead to quite different conclusions.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Does anyone deny that VICTORY inspired Harley to use Brembo brakes , 6 speed trans or wider rear tires ?

I think that much is undeniable.

Custom shops and Japanese have done this for years to a degree. Not until another American manufacturer came along doing it , did Harley make the move.

Bottom line ... Consumer wins! {salute(
 

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Just for the record, I had a '99 Dyna FXDX. Beefed up the ft. end with a brace & Race-Tech emulators. Basically a Joe Minton Special with a small amt. of head work. Ran pretty good actually. Currently my wife has an '01 FLSTC with the 'Minton' motor & the Race-Tech ft. end. Mine is an '02 RdGlde
with a lot more than Joe Minton ever dreamed. It also has the infamous "Rd King Click" in the ft end nobody can get out. Runs o.k. but sounds like a sewing machine with a bent needle. Makes more noise than a Jr. High school Rock & Roll band!
Granted my new Kingpin has it way outgunned with an extra 5 cubes and another gear but the RdGlde is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Someone earlier mentioned the engineering in the Vic and that perhaps most couldn't / wouldn't appreciate it. I guess that makes me an exception.
Besides, everybody has a Harley:dunno:

RR
 

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Does anyone deny that VICTORY inspired Harley to use Brembo brakes , 6 speed trans or wider rear tires ?

I think that much is undeniable.
Oh please.

What Harley uses a 250 tire?

Quite the contrary. First of all, wide tires have been around for years. Did Victory copy "Big Dog?" After all, they sell more bikes than Victory and have used 250 tires for years.

Besides, Harley's widest tire is a 200 and that's on one model, a softtail standard. Not near the 250 that the Hammer and Jackpot has as standard issue. So if they are copying, why would they use a 200 tire? Because it's wider than the 160?

Brembo brakes have been around for a long time before Victory even made a bike. As far as I know, the V-Rod is the only bike to use Brembo's. BMW has had Brembos on their bikes for years. Did Victory "copy" BMW?

As far as a six speed transmission, the Dyna is the only Harley to have the six speed transmission stock. That said, the dyna was completely redesigned for '06. How long do you think it takes for a motorcycle to get redesigned? A couple years. So since the six speed just came out this year on the Hammer, how would Harley be copying Victory?

The development time would put this project in 2003 at least. Far before the Hammer was introduced with a six speed. It was already in the design.

Look, Harley doesn't need to look to Victory for design cues and copying anything. Using your logic, Victory copied Harley by offering a V-twin cruiser in the first place.

I'm rooting for Victory as it's an America bike and has some good attributes.

But I'm always hearing Victory guys talking about how their bike "smokes" a Harley. Great, pat yourself on the back. You beat an 88 ci 62 hp air cooled v-twin. I'll get my Huyabusa and we'll race.

Guys who buy Harleys buy them for other reasons than horsepower, obviously. But I never hear Vic guys saying they beat a V-rod. Never. That's because it will blow any other cruiser away. Including a VTX, the new Suzuki M109, any Yamaha-Star cruiser, Vulcan 2000, and certainly any Victory.

But that's not the point anyway. Guys buy Harley 88's because they have a single pin, 45 degree, air cooled v-twin that can't be replicated. It's authentic and it has Harley-Davidson on the tank. That's enough for the riders that buy Harley.
 
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