V-Twin Forum banner

Government needs to bailout Motor Cycle manufacturers

8811 Views 160 Replies 42 Participants Last post by  scottq60
Just kidding.

Is it right for the government to bail out the Automakers, and not all the other businesses?

Granted: if the automakers die so do the steelmakers and all the smaller supporting industries. However, where do we draw the line?

Why don't the government just give everybody money to buy a new car? LOL That would save the auto industry!

Perhaps if the Auto execs didn't get paid so much?
141 - 160 of 161 Posts
Like I said "Pay up or else"
We have once again put ourselves in a possition where we can be held hostage.
I say no. Let the strongest of the three survive. And learn that excess will drive a business out of business. Once again I ask the question, "Can we really support three massive auto manufacturers"? I don't think so.
This thread has come full circle a couple of times. Those that support the bailout will, those that don't won't.

We all understand that, but our point is ARE THEY GONNA DO RIGHT WITH THE MONEY? If we give them the money and they swendle it all, and they still go BANKRUPT that means we'll end up paying for it twice... That's all we are saying, if we give em' the money and they do right then GREAT, but will they?
That's great but you say it like we have some sort of option to determine if they'll succeed or fail..it's out of our hands. I don't think it does much good to worry about it one way or the other. It is what it is....that whole "K sarah sarah" thing...
I think it all boils down to this... Like it has been said, we're being put into a situation where they are telling us you can spend this much and save us, or let us go bankrupt and it'll cost you this much... And the bottom line is that it is not fair that it has been put on us. Why are we being held accountable for the CEO's who lost touch with their customers, and the UNIONS who held the CEO's hostage for money? Why is it our responsibility? Like I said before, let's say we do say O.K. let's bail em' out... What is it? 30 billion... O.K. We give it to em' and they do it again, now they're goin BANKRUPT, we've already given them 30 BILLION, and now we are gonna hafta pay what is it, 4 times that much for their BANKRUPCY? That's a load of BULL. So what do you do? Do we put our faith in them give them the money and hope for the best, or do we just let them fight their way through this, hope they make it, and if they don't pay the money then? It's a scary thing, and the sad part is... This really shouldn't be in our laps.
See less See more
The thing is it is NOT in OUR laps...we have NO say in it whatsoever...can't remember the last time I was able to pick up the phone, call congress and FORCE them to vote one way or the other because I said so...

I don't like the situation either..but no use to stewin' over it...kinda a waste of energy really. If I thought I could personally do something about it, I'd be ALL over it...but other than voting when we get the opportunity, the rest is a done deal.
We come on here to discuss situations and express our views... Sometimes we are civilized, other times things break down into a name calling fest, but thats what we do. I like getting on here regardless of what I can actually do about something and talking to people to find out what everyone thinks about whats going on. We're not on here changing the world, we're just killing time, discussing things with people who enjoy the same great pass time as we do. You don't hafta tell us that we cannot change what they do, we know that, we're just talking. And yes it is in our laps Scot... Who do you think is gonna pay for all of this bro?
I know we're gonna pay for it...and you're right...folks come on here to express views. I wasn't trying to squelch that...guess I just need to tune out of this thread...I really have nothing to offer and I'm certainly sick of beatin' this horse.
we are going to pay for it either way...theres no doubt about it and i think everyone who hasnt had their head buried in the sand realizes that by now...


if we let them fail the cost is astronomical and the resulting depression will be impossible to avoid...there will be millions out of work that will ot be able to be absorbed by remaining companies...it will be a long and difficult road for the entire country...

if the low interest bridge loans do work...the companioes reorganize and get back on their feet.....repay the loans and the taxpayer profits...the original chrysler bailout worked in that respect...unfortunately in that instance there was no oversight and the company, which began to profit, went back to its habitual waste and is back for more....

this time...we are looking at oversight and demanded reorganization or forced bankruptcy...theres a big difference...somebody is gonna be looking over their shoulder and making sure they fly right...if they dont itll be an end they probably cant survive...

by the way...if you think disagreeing with me hurts my feelings you havent been here long enough to know anything about me...i enjoy the exchanges that go on here and am the first to laugh when something goes the wrong way...i'll play it anyway you want...this is a mental excersize for me and i enjoy it...this is candyassed compared to some of the discussions we used to get into years ago here...

all i see in this thread so far is a group of people who could give 2shits for the big three...which is pretty universal actually...but seem to forget about all of the small people who are going to be affected...including themselves...those people pay taxes too...and when they are unable to the burden will be put on the rest of us...until we are unable to....its not about the big shots who run the companies...congress already did a good job of letting them know how the country feels (if you havent watched any of the hearings you are really missing out)...its about people like us (the new pc term is "mainstreet")....

set aside your ill feelings for the a$$holes that allowed the companies to get into this mess and look at the guy sitting next to you who works for a company that is probably going to go under because one of the big three fails and tell him you dont give a ratsass about him cause he works for a company who works for a company you dont like ...see how it goes over...

just for practicality sake....we had trouble getting a fuel line for a 2008 vehicle a couple of months ago...it didnt fail...a rat chewed through it...we couldnt figure out what the delay was so we took one off a new vehicle to get the customer on the road...turns out the slowdown in sales and production was enough for the supplier of the lines to go out of business...somebody else was fortunate enough to pick up the extra business but theres a non-gm factory that put a whole mess of people in the unemployment line because there wasnt enough business to keep em alive...apparently toyota couldnt "pick up the slack for em"...those people probably arent going to be buying your products this year...hmmmmmmmm

2 beers is a good start but i think its gonna be a long night when it happens...we're gonna have to do better than that and i'm not sure i'm gonna be able to afford to buy a round...keep em coming...
See less See more
My take is that the repubs want specific goals that have to be met, while the bill that the house dems passed is more vague; get a drug czar, promise to do better, etc. I agree that we shouldn't bail them out if they will still fail, and I don't think they can succeed with the current labor and benefit structure. If the bill is not specific, then the new administration might could very well protect the UAW since unions vote for dems.
Am I reading it right, or somebody straighten me out on that.

One other note: When you look at the current UAW average wage, remember that the big 3 have been buying off workers with generous early retirement packages and replacing them with lower paid or temporary workers for several years now.
Well the Senate Rep's said no. Not that it will make a bit of difference. If they don't take some of the 70 billion from the other pot, all the UAW needs to do is wait about 5 weeks and the new Congress will give them everything they want. Thats why the UAW isn't giving anything up now. It will be Obama pay back time. Watch and see. The Dems know it and the UAW knows it. The big difference will be that there will be fewer built in safeguards later.

The other problem is that what are they gonna hide in this bill... So far there is a raise for judges across the board hidden in this, so what else are they gonna throw in it? They are either gonna use other terms to get the bill passed, or they're throwing in enough crap to keep it from getting passed... Who knows what they are up to? I guess we will have to wait and see what all they do with it.
Three things you CAN count on.
We will be left holding the bag and paying the bill.
The UAW will make money not loose money in the deal.
We will have to bail them out again in 10 years.
OK... OK... OK... Let's get back to the original topic on here. Should they bail out Motorcycle Manufacturers? They don't have to... The people at HD MOCO keep up with what the public wants. They may lose some buisiness, but they will not get that far in the hole. The BIG 3 could take some lessons from the MOCO on how to please your base customers.
OK... OK... OK... Let's get back to the original topic on here. Should they bail out Motorcycle Manufacturers? They don't have to... The people at HD MOCO keep up with what the public wants. They may lose some buisiness, but they will not get that far in the hole. The BIG 3 could take some lessons from the MOCO on how to please your base customers.
Hey, maybe AMF will bail out the Big 3!!!!
OK... OK... OK... Let's get back to the original topic on here. Should they bail out Motorcycle Manufacturers? They don't have to... The people at HD MOCO keep up with what the public wants. They may lose some buisiness, but they will not get that far in the hole. The BIG 3 could take some lessons from the MOCO on how to please your base customers.
they did bail out harley davidson once before...by tariffing foreign bikes to level the playing field...

do we blame upper management for this for this?....

Auto Bailout Talks Collapse Over Union Wages

A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said he was "terribly disappointed" about the demise of an emerging bipartisan deal to rescue Detroit's Big Three. He spoke shortly after Republicans left a closed-door meeting where they balked at giving the automakers federal aid unless their powerful union agreed to slash wages next year to bring them into line with those of Japanese carmakers. Republican Sen. George V. Voinovich of Ohio, a strong bailout supporter, said the UAW was willing to make the cuts — but not until 2011. Reid called the bill's collapse "a loss for the country," adding "I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It's not going to be a pleasant sight." The implosion followed an unprecedented marathon set of talks at the Capitol among labor, the auto industry and lawmakers who bargained into the night in efforts to salvage the auto bailout at a time of soaring job losses and widespread economic turmoil. "In the midst of already deep and troubling economic times, we are about to add to that by walking away," said Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., the Banking Committee chairman who led negotiations on the package. Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee, the GOP point man in the talks, said the two sides had been tantalizingly close to a deal, but the UAW's refusal to agree to wage concessions by a specific date in 2009 kept them apart. "We were about three words away from a deal," said Corker. "We solved everything substantively and about three words keep us from reaching a conclusion."
Source: Associated Press
See less See more
Interesting that after all this talk about the stock market tanking today over the lack of an agreement, it's up 65 points
I'm guessing it's up because the White House agreed to take the 14 billion out of the 700 billion set aside for Wall St.
you dont need to believe it...but you do need to read it...

Carmakers' woes aren't unique to Detroit –The Detroit News.

Daniel Howes: Commentary
Friday, December 19, 2008

In appearances before congressional inquisitions, General Motors Corp. Chairman Rick Wagoner got lambasted for suggesting the deepening recession was pushing the General to the existential edge.

The studied lawmakers on Senate Banking and House Financial Services didn't buy it. The blogosphere hooted denunciations. Others ignored Detroit's recent record of change and recycled tired stereotypes, dutifully repeating the riff that all things green-and-hybrid paved the only way out (irrespective of market demand or oil prices). And they portrayed Japan's Big Three -- Toyota, Honda and Nissan -- as somehow above the recession ravaging Detroit automakers.

Except they aren't. Witness production cutbacks, grim profit warnings and a prediction from Standard & Poor's that Toyota Motor Corp. could post operating losses in the second half of this year. The real stunner: Toyota's decision to postpone the start of production in Mississippi of its Prius hybrid -- the car America couldn't get enough of earlier this year.

Far from invincible, these foreign automakers are scrambling to protect enterprises because demand and consumer confidence are in free-fall, here and in markets around the world. Next thing you know the bosses of the "New American Auto Industry" will begin laying off permanent staffers, lest the Japanese Three end up operating the fattest jobs banks in the American auto plants.

That'd be an interesting twist to lay before congressional committee chairs, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the southern Republicans determined to lard Detroit's federal loan package with layers of draconian conditions.

Which isn't to say Detroit won't get them anyway. No question, debt-laden GM and Chrysler LLC are seeking emergency bridge loans from the Bush White House because they're nearly out of cash. And Ford Motor Co. says it wants access to $9 billion in federal credit lines.

In that, all three are demonstrably weaker than their chief foreign competitors. But Congress, official Washington and the Bigger America would get a truer picture of the relative competitiveness of Detroit Auto vs. Rest of World -- and the vulnerability of those not based here in Michigan -- if more folks reported the inconvenient truths diverging from the Detroit-is-bad and everyone-else-is-good template.

Honda Motor Co., which just two months ago said it would be profitable in the second half of the year, now expects to slip into the red. Nissan Motor Co. is sharply cutting production. Toyota's sales are tanking along with everyone else's, the strengthening yen is cutting export earnings and the assumed runaway popularity of its hybrid line-up is proving susceptible to the price of gas and the credit crunch.

Imagine that.

"As the downturn in global auto markets may continue for some time, Toyota's profitability could remain under considerable downward pressure, at least until fiscal 2009," S&P said, adding that "the company is not immune to the weakening state of worldwide auto markets."

Which is the point. Anyone who looks at the numbers (financials, market share, equity prices), grasps the history (of product hits, management gaffes and labor intransigence) and understands what Detroit's Big Three have done -- and what they haven't -- knows this reckoning has been waiting to happen for years.

They'd also know that in an economy as wretched as this one, from Detroit and New York to Paris, Frankfurt and Tokyo, even the mightiest juggernauts can stumble. Why is that so hard to understand and acknowledge, honestly?
See less See more
Your right Tom, I read it and don't believe it. Not that particular Detroit spin anyway. Yes the recession will hurt everyone. No doubt about it. It's not JUST the big three. It started before they threw in the towel and came begging. But....that still doesn't mean that the rest of us should pay the bill for their mistakes and greed. I'm just hopeful that the new Congress doesn't jump in for the votes. The this for that, pay to play politics will leave us all weaker in the end. It does figure that the good Governor wanted a Union job. He'd of made more screwing us from there than he ever did as a politician.
nice to know i can be right about something anyway...

Toyota May Post 1st Parent Operating Loss in 71 Years

TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp., the world's biggest automaker, is likely to report its first annual parent-only operating loss in 71 years, hit by plunging sales and the soaring yen, Japanese media reported on Friday. Toyota is set to issue revised forecasts for its parent-only and consolidated profits for the business year to March 31, 2009, at a year-end news conference scheduled on Monday, the Chunichi Shimbun and Kyodo news agency said. Toyota last posted an operating loss at the parent level, which doesn't include its subsidiaries, in its first year of operation in 1937/38.
Source: Reuters
This is a case of not seeing the trees for the forest.

1. American upper auto management is paid much more then Japanese upper management. Perhaps if Coorker had also included upper management also lower their wage and benifits the UAW would had been agreeable.

2. The pay UAW workers receive is not what is hurting the big 3. It's the health package for the retired workers and the layoff package. Again if upper management would take hits in these areas the UAW world be more willing to take the same cuts. If a upper manager gets canned they walk with a huge pay package and if they retire they have a quality health plan.

3. I know some auto workers. The base pay without overtime is around 70,000 a year a decent salary. If they work overtime and live at the job 7 days a week or 10 to 12 hours a day they can earn around 100,000. IS THIS NOT THE AMERICAN WAY WORK HARD AND REAP THE BENIFITS!!!!! If a worker wants to live at their jobs in order to send kids to college, provide a quality life for their family or put back money for retirement whats wrong with that. A upper management emplyee comes to work and maybe puts in 2/3's of that time and makes 100's of thousands a year or even millions buy sitting behind a desk but a blue collar worker who does physical work is not entitled to the chance to have a decent pay.

If Coorker wants to level the playing field then do it on all levels. But when he owned a construction company here in Tennessee he used illegal workers at low wages which is a huge problem in the construction business and has lower wages and kept them at levels of 20 years ago. No wonder he doesn't want his elitest buddies to take hard cuts.

When people in this country get their heads out of the sand and read some real history not the whitewashed propaganda that is put out by the corporate goverment which rules this country now we will learn that everthing our parnets and grandparents fought for we have let slip away. And while billions of dollars have been given to wall street with no oversite and no say in whats happened to it go into corporate coffers we are taking it out on the American worker once again. What about that giveaway! Where is the freed up credit that was supposed to accomplish.

We have a right to petition the goverment but try to go down to the floor on state or federal levels and sit with your elected official, sorry your seat is taken by a corporate lobbiest, you will be escorted out and if you protest you will be arrested. Write a letter- sure, you will get a nice form letter in reply thanking you for your concern but be assured you elected official is acting in you best interest.

And all the while the people who are getting hurt defends all this. Anybody making 250,000 a year or more please stand up.
See less See more
141 - 160 of 161 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.