Government needs to bailout Motor Cycle manufacturers

evodog said:

Ya'll talk about how if they "American Auto makers" made a competitive product......think about the ignorance of your statment. None of the countries that are flooding this country with their "tariff free" products have the EPA or any of the other regulatory agencies breathing down there backs. Nor do they have the same standard of living we enjoy. They are just emerging ...about a 100 years in our past! You talk about how these shops that subcontract to the Big 3 will just make it for someone else....Wrong!
The imports will make it over seas.....12 hours a day....$25.00 a month...2.days off a month...thats what these people make over in the china! And just ship it to u dumb asses that think Global Economy is a great thing! Our manufacturing base is the basis for the Sovereignty and Might of this Great Country! With out it we are on our way to 3rd world country status!
Ohh and your Collage edycation will help to get that job at Mc Donalds...for sure!

Start learning your new bosses language "Chinese" and start getting use to those 12 hour days...while you continue to buy that import garbage!
You all don't have a CLUE!

They don't need bailouts...just a equal playing field!

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Ya'll talk about how if they "American Auto makers" made a competitive product......think about the ignorance of your statment.
I don't recall many comments in this thread regarding competitive products. I personally think the big 3 do an ok job as far as competitive products go.
None of the countries that are flooding this country with their "tariff free" products have the EPA or any of the other regulatory agencies breathing down there backs.
I'm pretty sure most cars sold in the U.S. are made in the US. I don't think we are "flooded" with imports. Toyota, Honda, BMW, and I think VW all have manufacturing plants in the U.S. You're wrong on the EPA point. At least product side, all cars sold in the US must meet EPA regs. The plant that produces them, if not in the US doesn't have to conform to EPA.
You talk about how these shops that subcontract to the Big 3 will just make it for someone else....Wrong!
The imports will make it over seas.....12 hours a day....$25.00 a month...2.days off a month...thats what these people make over in the china! And just ship it to u dumb asses that think Global Economy is a great thing!
I can tell you from personal experience Honda has many U.S. based suppliers, and my company supplies Toyota right now. Global economy has been here since spices were all the rage. Good or bad it is here to stay. There will always be someone somewhere willing to work for less than someone else. Get used to it, adapt. Easy with the "dumb asses" comment.
Ohh and your Collage edycation will help to get that job at Mc Donalds...for sure!
From this statement I gather you either don't think a college education has value, or you don't like college educated people. I would hope for your children's sake you don't express these views to them.
Start learning your new bosses language "Chinese" and start getting use to those 12 hour days...while you continue to buy that import garbage!
You all don't have a CLUE!

Give me an example of import garbage. I don't know much about Kia, but I think they were the first to offer a 100,000 mile warranty. How are they pulling that off if they are making garbage? Maybe you need to open your eyes. There are companies all over this world making great cars. If you and the big 3 want people to buy their products, make the decision easy for people

Maxxdaddy said:

Wow!
Evodog, yes my friend I do get it. The Automakers are in a bad position and have been. They have been forced to innact standards by Congress that they couldn't afford, which along with their Union agreements resulted in a product that is overpriced compaired to what is I'm afraid is superior foriegn products. I'd love to go down to the lot TODAY and trade my 2005 Tacoma in on a new Dodge Truck. Love to. Problem is I KNOW FOR ABSOLUTELY SURE that my Toyota will run, relatively trouble free for another 200 thousand miles. I know this because my 91 Four Runner (265,000 miles and got 3500.00 on trade) did and my little Toy truck before it did. The Dodge? 7/70????? Drive train only? Right. Drive a GM, Ford or Dodge truck onto the lot with 265,000 miles on it and lets see what kind of trade in you get. Oh, sorry. I mean tow in a GM, Ford or Dodge truck with 265,000 miles. To try to stay competitive with all the other factors (Gov't, Union, Competition) the Big three have had to try and off set price with crappy production and inferior parts. Have you seen the wire strands in a GM product? The thinist wire possible. It lightens the load, cuts the costs and FAILS, shorts or burns up your computer after 80,000 miles.

OK, back on track. What to do now? Continue to support failure? I know lets raise the minimum wage another $2.00 and drive employers to lay off another 1 or 2%. It's a crap sandwhich for sure, hope were all hungry!

Maxx

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apparently you dont get it...they all use lightweight components and there are almost no wire gauge related failures in us vehicles...as a matter of fact in most instances our electronics hold up very well....i have multiple customers with 6 figure mileages who have experienced little or no unusual failure...including one diesel dually with 465,000 miles on it that doesnt burn a drop of oil and tows proffessionally all over the united states...hasnt missed a beat...another small car customer who traded a 430,000 mile saturn in on another and has racked up over 200,000 on that one without a hiccup....there are countless customers with the same luck youve had with your foreign vehicles because they arent built like they were during the "bad" days anymore but people like yourself choose to believe they are...the foreign manufacturers are experiencing more problems now that they have become larger companies and along with larger vehicle numbers produced comes higher failure rates...including toyota leading the world in recalls for a year...the differences you mention dont exsist anymore...only in your mind...americans build world class automobiles now...i can prove it with the decrease ive seen in warranty work in my own facilities...it used to be a profit center...now it doesnt even light the building...

i'll leave it alone now because i cant compete with rumor, speculation and "my personal experience is the only experience" thinking...spend some time in the industry and you would have seen the differences the americans have made in their vehicles... while you were out putting lots of miles on someone elses well made vehicles we were building a quality product...

theres a whole lot more to the business problems than most form the outside can see...but everyone has an opinion and could give a ratsass about anyone involved...when it starts to affect you...and it wont be long if it continues in the direction it is going...you might think a bit differently...

the government is bailing out a lot of businesses...some that they forced to do things they shouldnt have and some who have created many of their own problems...the big three arent asking for a handout...they are looking for low interest govt loans...there is a difference...its worked in the past and if these companies can work an effective plan they can make it work...its gonna be painful either way...but the effects of a bankrupsy are far more immediate, disasterous and expensive....

dont be angry because you dont feel like youre not getting a piece of the pie...trust me...you are...and the foreign manufacturers you support thank you...

Thanks Tomv,
My opinion, grounded in my personal history and experience is what I have to work with. Having just last year tried to trade in a 4 year old Taurus with 102K on the clock, I found it was worth under a 1000.00? That sir, says loads. My friends 2005 Ford F350 Dually had one of those "Rare" wire gauge failures. Out of service , out of pocket. Because he couldn't afford the Ford shops rates, he had to take it to an indy. I bet, because he went that route it doesn't count in anyones bona fide failure rate. I'm sure your proud of your company. I'm absolutely sure after reading many of your posts that your one stand up guy and we would have a great time in the wind or over a beer, but in this we have a difference in opinion. I respect yours, and maybe I'm wrong in some respects, but my opinion is as you say, based on my experience.

I am and will continue to tell my representatives that Bailouts are not the way to go.
Maxx

tomv said:

we'd have a ball....bet on it...as long as we didnt talk about american vs foreign vehicle reliability....

ride safe..

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I've got about 30 years worth of experience with Fords...most of them I bought new or just lightly (less than 20k miles) used.

I'll just say that my experience with my 98 Ranger 4x4 that I bought brand new and my wife's 02 Eddie Bauer Explorer...bought w/14k miles on it were awful enough that I'd NEVER buy another Ford...except for maybe a Mustang. While Mustangs aren't perfect either, I like them enough to tolerate a bit of warranty maintenance occasionally - my wife's 06 GT vert has already been back a few times and has a whopping 13k miles on it. Had the battery replaced and it's been back for at least a couple recalls.

I will say that our 99 Taurus SE wagon was probably the BEST new vehicle we've ever bought...sold it with 146k miles on it with a minimum of return trips to the dealership...its worst problem was warping front brake rotors every 20-30k miles...

I'm driving my 96 GMC Sierra that I bought from my father a couple years ago and I must say it is a QUALITY vehicle...very tight and solid for a 13 year old. My toy (03 Z06) hasn't given me a second's problem in the 15 months I've owned it, of course the first owner paid $50k+ for it...that chunk of change SHOULD buy a pretty dependable vehicle!

So we have bailed out the big investment banks and not only has it not freed up credit but it seems we have no way of tracking what has happened to the money.

So we don't bail out the big 3 and they go into chapter 11. They stay open but unknown numbers of people lose their jobs due to much lower parts demand. I'm not talking about car workers I'm talking about small town America. I pick up at 3 locations in Columbia Tn. that supply parts which are already laying off people due to lack of demand.

The big 3 are loans, the big investment banks are stock ownership that the goverment doesn't even have voting rights in. Sounds like once again the American worker takes it in the can.

If we weren't going to do one , then we shouldn't have done the other. In the Great Depression the private banks were made secure in order to restore confidence and make loans to small bussiness and goverment programs to create jobs were made. The stock market was allowed to tank and The SEC and other regulation was created. It took 10 years but everything including the enviormental problems from over farming in the west was solved. We didn't learn from history and removed regulation from the securities markets and again we are overfarming the west in a dry climate. If you liked the Great Depression 1 your going to love number 2.

I would like to apologize! I am a union hvac mechanic in a small shop of 20guys, most of us have trade liscenses and years of experience and schooling. 23.00hr is the Top rate a mechanic can make and a benefit package that is probably worth another 14.00hr. Our company and competition also have non-union shops that make the same or more per hour.

My opion of Unions: (I am the recording secratery for our local, total members 85guys) 5% of the guys always seem to have issues doing their jobs all the time, the company should document this and get rid of them. The company H-R people does the interviews and hiring of individuals, they hire these idiot employees and the union gets stuck representing them. I really dont like the politics of our International Union, just like washington politicians, they dont know what we do at the grass roots level and cant be bothered with us after they are elected into office. The 95% of the other brothers come to work and do whats asked of them, they would have a hard time finding their union cards. If asked to sweep the floor and I have, I do it, I have hand delivered door fliers when asked.

My opion of Management: I remember when we had managers that paid their dues and really knew the trade they are doing. I respect engineers that are engineers and not just people managers. If you are a manager and say "it is what it is or hind site is 50/50" you are a azz hole". To many people hold positions in management that are only waiting to make their move to the next open position in any field in the company, accounting today and ditch digging tomorrow.

Auto Industrie: Henry Ford knew about automobiles and business. I feel that these new Ceo's work for Wall Street, and their job is to meet the Projected earnings that wall street analists say they should. If you dont hit your target every quarter then your losing money. They know about business from the business model they were taught in college, they have no people skills though. Lead by example! You have a business because of your CUSTOMERS, not your stock holders, put it in perspective. I bet if a test was given to the top executives for the big 3 they couldnt pass, lay out 100 typical parts of a car, battery, brake pads ect, wouldnt it make sense to have someone run a company that knows about the product.

Maybe they should file for chapter 11. Outsource the management to japan. Let them run the company with a 50:1 pay ratio from top to bottom. Have a 20:1 manager to worker ratio insteed of the 4:1 ratio thats in place now.

One last thing, what does the big three pay in legal fees and lawsuits against them from all the ambulance chaser lawyers in this country, I bet that adds another 700.00 to each car. How much does the big three pay for famous endorsements, Tiger woods, Glen Beck ect. thats another 200.00 per car.

Here are some facts from the WEB that don't get the press they deserve - next time you hear negative comments about domestic this may come in handy it also has the sites that the info came from as well. Pay particular attention to #13 - It says a lot

1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

a. Germany
b. Japan
c. Korea
d. United States

2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

a. Chrysler
b. Ford
c. GM
d. Nissan
e. Toyota
f. Volkswagen

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.

a. Acura, BMW, Cadillac (all luxury makes)
b. Honda, Mercury, Nissan (all non-luxury makes)
c. Acura (lux), Chevrolet (non-lux), BMW (lux), Mazda (non-lux)

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

a. Accord (Honda)
b. Altima (Nissan)
c. Camry ( Toyota )
d. Malibu (Chevrolet)

5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

a. Avalon ( Toyota )
b. Grand Prix ( Pontiac )
c. Sable (Mercury)

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

a. Dakota (Dodge)
b. Ranger (Ford)
c. Tacoma ( Toyota )

7. Which car is the most economical overall?

a. Aveo (Chevrolet)
b. Fit (Honda)
c. Prius ( Toyota )

8. Which car did the LA Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

a. A6 (Audi)
b. CTS (Cadillac)
c. RL (Acura)

9. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

a. Chevrolet
b. Honda
c. Toyota

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

a. Aura (Saturn)
b. Camry ( Toyota )
c. Fit (Honda)

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?

a. Accord (Honda)
b. Altima coupe (Nissan)
c. Malibu (Chevrolet)

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?

a. Chrysler
b. Ford
c. General Motors
d. Hyundai
e. Toyota
f. Volkswagen


ANSWERS:

1. Which country can boast that their brands occupy 2 of the top 3 spots for long-term reliability?

Answer: United States .
Per J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability Study, Mercury and Cadillac are in the top 3, along with Lexus. And in 2007, Buick was tied with Lexus for the top spot.
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

2. As of August 2007, which manufacturer had the most recalled vehicles in the U.S. for that year?

Answer: Volkswagen.
According to Business Week, Volkswagen had the most recalls at this time a year ago. The second worst was Toyota .
www.businessweek.com/a...

3. Pick the brand from each group that has the highest initial quality.

a. Answer : Cadillac (better than both Acura and BMW)
b. Answer: Mercury (better than both Honda and Nissan)
c. Answer: Chevrolet (better than Acura, BMW, and Mazda)
This is according to J.D. Power’s Initial Quality Survey.
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

4. Which midsize sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Chevrolet Malibu has better initial quality than any competitor, including the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry and Nissan Altima. The Ford Fusion also beat all 3 Japanese competitors.
This too is from the J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey, which also reveals that above average are American brands Mercury, Ford, Cadillac, Chevrolet , Pontiac, Lincoln, and Buick. Below average are import brands Acura, Kia, Nissan, BMW, Mazda, VW, Subaru, and Scion (and several others).
www.jdpower.com/autos/...
www.jdpower.com/corpor...

5. Which large sedan has the highest initial quality?

Answer: Again per J.D. Power, the highest quality large car is the Pontiac Grand Prix, beating the Toyota Avalon. Two other Detroit cars that beat the Avalon are the Mercury Sable and Mercury Grand Marquis.
www.jdpower.com/autos/...

6. Which midsize pickup has the highest initial quality?

Answer: The Dodge Dakota has the best quality for midsize pickups, proving that Chrysler too can beat the imports. Both the Dakota and the Ford Ranger beat the Toyota Tacoma.
www.jdpower.com/autos/...

7. Which car is the most economical overall?

Answer: Per Edmunds.com, the premier automotive analysis site, the most economical car in America , taking into account not only mileage but all costs, is the Chevrolet Aveo. The Honda Fit is #3 and the Toyota Prius is a distant #34.
www.edmunds.com/help/a...

8. Which car did the Los Angeles Times describe as “a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti”?

Answer: “Cadillac makes a better car than BMW or Mercedes or Lexus or Infiniti, and that car is the 2008 CTS. No other car in the mass market dares so much as this expressive and audacious bit of automotive avant-gardism.” Dan Neil, LA Times.
www.latimes.com/classi...

9. Which company makes the winner of the 2008 “Green Car of the Year” award?

Answer: The Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid is the winner of this award. How could a full-size SUV defeat the media darling Toyota Prius? Read the link below and you will discover, “What’s equally eye-opening is that the Tahoe’s 21 mpg city fuel efficiency rating is the same as that of the city EPA rating for the four-cylinder Toyota Camry sedan. ”

Did you catch that? A huge, full-size SUV from Chevrolet that gets the same city mileage as a 4-cylinder Toyota Camry!! Chevy obtained this remarkable achievement through the use of its 2-mode hybrid system, a technology that Toyota does not have.
www.greencar.com/featu.../

10. Which car was selected by the North American automotive press corps as the “North American Car of the Year” for 2007?

Answer: Not only was the Saturn Aura picked by the automotive press corps as better than the Honda Fit and the Toyota Camry, “When a panel of 47 journalists named the Saturn Aura the North American Car of the Year over the Toyota Camry, the vote wasn't even close, 205-89.” Chicago Tribune, 1/15/07
www.northamericancarof...

11. Which car won the same award for 2008?

Answer: GM again crushed the Japanese competition in 2008 when the Malibu received 190 votes to the Honda Accord’s 95. The Accord actually came in 3rd since GM’s other finalist, the Cadillac CTS, received 165 votes.
www.northamericancarof...

12. Which company had a luxury vehicle, a midsize sedan, and a large truck removed from the Consumer Reports recommended vehicles list in October 2007 because of mounting quality problems?

Answer: Toyota’s much publicized quality problems resulted in Consumer Reports actually removing from their recommended vehicles list the Lexus GS luxury car, Camry V6 sedan, and Tundra pickup. This demotion occurred in October 2007.

13.If you are one of the many Americans who gave up on Detroit ’s cars because of a bad experience many years ago, it’s time to rethink your position. Rethink Detroit .

Detroit automakers: 79 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America .
Foreign automakers: 33 U.S. jobs per 2,500 cars sold in America .
levelfieldinstitute.or.../