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Government needs to bailout Motor Cycle manufacturers

8784 Views 160 Replies 42 Participants Last post by  scottq60, 
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Just kidding.

Is it right for the government to bail out the Automakers, and not all the other businesses?

Granted: if the automakers die so do the steelmakers and all the smaller supporting industries. However, where do we draw the line?

Why don't the government just give everybody money to buy a new car? LOL That would save the auto industry!

Perhaps if the Auto execs didn't get paid so much?
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Pikeslayer said:
First of all, I didn't call anyone a socialist. I just pointed out a socialist theme.


The $20 with pension $22 without was an example. The point was that I would rather have an additional 10% to invest for my future as opposed to letting someone else do it for me.



Here we go, back to class warfare. What do you suggest? Will you determine the CEO's compensation? Who will? Suggesting anybody else do it is a step towards socialism.

I agree with you on one point here. I'm not a fan of the golden parachute. I also think CEO's compensation (up to 50%) be tied to company performance.

Folks, at the end of the day this is America. This country offers all of us a chance at prosperity, not a promise of prosperity. If anyone of us doesn't like our situation, there is no other place on earth that offers a better environment to change our situation.
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I am pointing out a socialist theme also. That is goverment protection for corporate America.

As far a CEO's salary. In the 1950's Europe and Japan CEO's were around 20% higher then the lower management and hourly workers. In the U. S. its was 50%. Now the Europe and Japan companies are only 2 to 4% higher while American CEO's are making 600 times more then their workers. The workers salary has not even kept up with inflation.

Now I am going to step on some toes here. I come in contact with a very large group of workers in all service and manufactoring situations. I here all the time everybody wants to come here from every country in the world. Look around folks. Do you see thousands of Germans, French or English here. No you see people from poor undeveloped countries who come here. And while they are wage slaves being taken advantage of my companies for their cheap labor they are still better off then in their home countries. They few Europeans I come in contact with are skilled workers who are paid well to fill jobs our schools are not training the average students to do. In the 50's the U.S. was the place to be number 1 in the world. Now according to the World Health agency we are number 9. With health, education, jobs and life being the markers. Read the papers we are overweight, out of shape and employers are complaining they are not getting high school grads you are able to do the job. This is from all news sources conservation and liberal. If anyone has read anything differnt please sit me right. Our grandparents and parents worked hard to live and fought for workers rights not counting 2 wars to make this a country for the people not for corporate welfare. I respect anyone's right to their view and to state that view , that is the only right we have left but if we don't wake up and make this country work for us we are going to go bankrupt like the Soviet Union did and be at mercy of countries we owe money to because we don't want to pay taxes to keep America ours. As far as killing terrorist I'm all for that butBush may have made more then he killed.
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Prog Rocker said:
What I don't understand is how so many people are looking to President-elect Obama to single-handedly "deliver us from evil". Cheers
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Obama perpetuated this myth with his "Hope and Change" montra during the campaign. He promised he could fix everything. Well, now he has the bull-by-the-horns.

Can he deliver? Probably not. Not sure anyone could deliver, but my point is he put himself in this delima. It's time for him to put up or shut up!
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It's time for him to put up or shut up!
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Presidential powers are limited.
Remember when Clinton first took office? He immediately said to let gays into the military. He was almost laughed out of office and then settled for "don't ask don't tell".
The point is, the Prez just can't walk into office and change everything with out the approval of many others.

Campaign promises serve only one purpose, to get one elected.
Kind of like the salesman of any product. "Buy me, not him".
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scottq60 said:
I'm with ya...seems to me that (at least some) folks who are against unions/pensions/healthcare plans...may just be a bit envious of those who have EARNED them....

I thought it curious that Pikeslayer mentioned "if you see combat" as a worthwhile reason for getting a pension. I guess my 20 years of service are nullified because I only maintained the nuclear arsenal that WON the cold war with Russia. I wasn't dodgin' bullets, so I'm not worthy of my pension/healthcare...even though I volunteered to go to the desert back in '91. Dammit!!! I knew I should've insisted they let me go...:hystria:
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You had a job where as far I'm concerned you've earned a pension and the health care that should come with it.
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pspez said:
I think evryone is over thinking. If each US born citizen over the age of 21 were to recieve $300,000.00 and tax it, all economic problems will stop!! I know that the idea is radical but, it will work. If anyone can give me a down side to this please inlighten me.Seriously. I am not been a sarcasitc.
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As for thinking outside the box I would buy you a beer for that idea. Since I cann't I'll just drink one for you.

Before things get out of hand let me state I respect Pikeslayers view point. Debate should be at the heart of American values. I would ride with him, buy him a beer and if some punk would try to steal his bike he would not want me to be around.

Now we have shared that Kodak moment I still think he's wrong.
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Pikeslayer
BlueGlide05 said:
I am pointing out a socialist theme also. That is goverment protection for corporate America.

As far a CEO's salary. In the 1950's Europe and Japan CEO's were around 20% higher then the lower management and hourly workers. In the U. S. its was 50%. Now the Europe and Japan companies are only 2 to 4% higher while American CEO's are making 600 times more then their workers. The workers salary has not even kept up with inflation.

Now I am going to step on some toes here. I come in contact with a very large group of workers in all service and manufactoring situations. I here all the time everybody wants to come here from every country in the world. Look around folks. Do you see thousands of Germans, French or English here. No you see people from poor undeveloped countries who come here. And while they are wage slaves being taken advantage of my companies for their cheap labor they are still better off then in their home countries. They few Europeans I come in contact with are skilled workers who are paid well to fill jobs our schools are not training the average students to do. In the 50's the U.S. was the place to be number 1 in the world. Now according to the World Health agency we are number 9. With health, education, jobs and life being the markers. Read the papers we are overweight, out of shape and employers are complaining they are not getting high school grads you are able to do the job. This is from all news sources conservation and liberal. If anyone has read anything differnt please sit me right. Our grandparents and parents worked hard to live and fought for workers rights not counting 2 wars to make this a country for the people not for corporate welfare. I respect anyone's right to their view and to state that view , that is the only right we have left but if we don't wake up and make this country work for us we are going to go bankrupt like the Soviet Union did and be at mercy of countries we owe money to because we don't want to pay taxes to keep America ours. As far as killing terrorist I'm all for that butBush may have made more then he killed.
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As far a CEO's salary. In the 1950's Europe and Japan CEO's were around 20% higher then the lower management and hourly workers. In the U. S. its was 50%. Now the Europe and Japan companies are only 2 to 4% higher while American CEO's are making 600 times more then their workers. The workers salary has not even kept up with inflation.
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Now you are whining. In this country you can command what ever pay you want. Are you complaining that the CEO makes too much, or workers don't make enough? Workers are free to go get another high paying job. I did. After high school I went to college, couldn't stand it, so I quit. Became a roofer, this put college into perspective, so I borrowed as much money as I could and went back to school. Worked a semester, went to school a semester. Did this until I graduated. 12 years later and I am still paying off student loans.

Just what is it that you want? And from who do you want it?

Now the Europe and Japan companies are only 2 to 4% higher while American CEO's are making 600 times more then their workers.
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I'm not buying that European CEO's are only making 4% more than workers. If that's the case, why isn't there a mass exodus of CEO's from Europe to the U.S.

What a C.E.O. commands in salary is up to the CEO. If the market will bear it so be it. This is the free market system. It is up to the individual worker, the business owner, the CEO, or whoever to determine what they want in compensation. If the market won't bear it, they won't have a job. It has worked for over 200 years here. Again, if you go dictating what someone else's pay is your headed towards socialism.
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What a C.E.O. commands in salary is up to the CEO. If the market will bear it so be it.
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The market is currently not "bearing" it. Hello?

When the company does well he should get it, when the company does poorly he should get a more realistic wage. (Not go crying to the Government for help instead).
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Pikeslayer maybe I stated this wrong, European and Japan CEO's now make around 24% more then lower management and hourly workers. This was according to a article in the Wall Street Journal I read while in the doctors office. Also since in Europe there are socialists systems perspectives may be off. My point is American CEO's are way overpaid for the level of success American companies are at.

Now I would like to say I hold no resentment towards a person who was either lucky enough to go to a ivy league college or a person who went to a state university and worked their way up to be a SUCCESSFUL leader of their company. They earned to live in a gated community and all the glitter that comes with it. I choose a differnt route. After some college I dropped out and went into the warehouseing and trucking industry. After landing a union job I was able to lead a life of sports skydiving, cliff climbing, hunting etc. Then I rasied a family in small houses driving used cars. Every motorcycle I have had including the Harley I ride today came with hard work I feel every day I wake up. I wouldn't have it any other way and would not change it if I could. The reason I enjoy riding my bike is the fact I've earned it. I'm not whining I'm pissed off my kids don't have the same options I had in my 20's.

As far as if a person doesn't like his job he can go elsewhere and "command" a higher salary please post your location I'm sure thousands of people will love to know where it is.
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Faast Ed said:
Presidential powers are limited.
Remember when Clinton first took office? He immediately said to let gays into the military. He was almost laughed out of office and then settled for "don't ask don't tell".
The point is, the Prez just can't walk into office and change everything with out the approval of many others.

Campaign promises serve only one purpose, to get one elected.
Kind of like the salesman of any product. "Buy me, not him".
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You are correct, Presidential power is limited. That still doesn't negate the fact that he promised the American people that he could fix it.

So, now he finds himself in the unenviable position of President with a Congress of the same party. It's a nightmare scenario.
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He will truly be a hero if he can pull it off!
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Z
While he's at it, Uncle Sam can bail me out of that ridiculous financing Harley provided me on my purchase of my motorcycle.

Whoo Rahh!
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1997bagger
I struggle with feeling sorry for the automaker industry, living 20 minutes from a Ford plant and 45 minutes from a GM plant I know several workers. It is common for conversations to obtain statements of working double and tripletime and catching up on their sleep, playing on the computer most of the day and going to the neighboring bowling alley and watch lingerie shows while on the clock.
CEO's are just an inflated version of this practice, I honestly can say that it isn't just isolated cases, just seems to be a mindset.

Holding a hand out is a easy way out of a self created problem, solving the problem of unefficient practices is why upper management gets paid kings ransoms to solve. If I offend some hardworking autoworkers, then you take pride in your job, it isn't the case of all the workers but when I look at a sticker on the car, I hear the voices.
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Pikeslayer
BlueGlide05 said:
As far as if a person doesn't like his job he can go elsewhere and "command" a higher salary please post your location I'm sure thousands of people will love to know where it is.
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It's not a matter of moving. It's a matter of obtaining the skills, training, or credentials needed to change ones career. I gave my example (college to roofing to back to college).

Heck, go into business for yourself. There is no easy way. There are no guarantees. This is what I love about this country.

Here's a good story:
A buddy of mine was a machinist working for a company that was being shut down. Him and his friend decided they would open up there own shop. They took out a loan, leased a small building, bought a chop saw, a Bridgeport, and a lathe and hung their sign out. At the time my buddy had a wife and 3 kids, so he had to take a 2nd shift job as well as working at his business during the day. Now they are successful and have 7 employees.

Here's the point: He wasn't satisfied. He was ticked that his future was in the hands of someone else, so he went out on his own, and commanded his own salary. He busted his a$$ and it payed off.
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scottq60 said:
Why should every US born citizen over the age of 21 be GIVEN anything???
That's the problem with a HUGE portion of the population...a sense of entitlement...
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First of all, I don't beleive that we should bail out all those pigs at the top giving themselves 30,000,000.00 bonus all the while their companies and employees lose. If we are to give anyone anything it should be from the bottom up. People would buy homes, pay off loans, buy cars, and pumping money into our economy. I am more conservitive than liberal. Its not an entitalment it is a stimulas to the people instead of corrupt CEOs.
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newultraclassic
baldbiker said:
What's strange is the Dem Congress and Obama are the ones for the bailout, Bush is saying "too bad - go away."



$20,000 according to most estimates. But hey - you don't expect THEM to cut back, do you?? Ken Lay said it best - it is "difficult to turn off that lifestyle like a spigot"
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I wonder what it cost for Obama's round trip flight to Hawaii for a visit to his dying grandmother. I'm not saying I care and I don't now who paid but it couldn't have been cheap with all of that security.

20K is peanuts. You can make a big deal out of the airplanes. I think it stinks, too but it's not the real problem now.

If the car manufacturers go out of busines, there will be food riots in a short time.
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Pikeslayer
pspez said:
First of all, I don't beleive that we should bail out all those pigs at the top giving themselves 30,000,000.00 bonus all the while their companies and employees lose. If we are to give anyone anything it should be from the bottom up. People would buy homes, pay off loans, buy cars, and pumping money into our economy. I am more conservitive than liberal. Its not an entitalment it is a stimulas to the people instead of corrupt CEOs.
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I am more conservitive than liberal.
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Obviously not. Conservatives don't believe in income redistribution.
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Pikeslayer
For those of you who think Obama cares, you're wrong. If he cared, all he would have to do is make a statement promising not to raise taxes on anyone for the next 2 years. The stock market would sky rocket. This stock market crash should be no surprise. When you campaign for a year telling everyone that you want the capital gains tax to go from 15% to 28%, what do you think people are going to do, buy stock?
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Pikeslayer said:
Obviously not. Conservatives don't believe in income redistribution.
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People need to get their heads out of the sand. Wake up. When corporate CEOs are paying themselves hundreds of millions of dollars when people are losing jobs, is criminal. I am sure you believe in job performance. Where is YOUR moral backbone? It seems to me that people would rather have the economy tank just to stand on an misconceived idea that the trickle down might work. I believed in it with Reagan. Did it work? It didn't.
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Z
Let me tell you what a socialist is. A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries said:
May not be fair,but sure as hell ain't socialist.
Ed
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Pikeslayer
pspez said:
People need to get their heads out of the sand. Wake up. When corporate CEOs are paying themselves hundreds of millions of dollars when people are losing jobs, is criminal. I am sure you believe in job performance. Where is YOUR moral backbone? It seems to me that people would rather have the economy tank just to stand on an misconceived idea that the trickle down might work. I believed in it with Reagan. Did it work? It didn't.
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Wake up. When corporate CEOs are paying themselves hundreds of millions of dollars when people are losing jobs, is criminal.
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CEO's don't pay themselves, the board of directors approve their salary. So, what, every time a company has to lay people off we should renegotiate the CEO's compensation package? Good luck finding a CEO who sign up for that. This is why you aren't a CEO, or on a board of directors.
I am sure you believe in job performance.
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Yes I do. I think I have already stated that.
Where is YOUR moral backbone?
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So you are saying it is moral for someone other than the board to determine the compensation of its CEO? Some outside entity should dictate some kind of cap? If you believe this you are in the wrong country. Keep going down that path and nobody will want to take their company public. Now that would be a serious financial crisis.
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