Government needs to bailout Motor Cycle manufacturers

8784 Views 160 Replies 42 Participants Last post by scottq60, Dec 20, 2008

Faast Ed

Discussion Starter · Nov 21, 2008

Just kidding.

Is it right for the government to bail out the Automakers, and not all the other businesses?

Granted: if the automakers die so do the steelmakers and all the smaller supporting industries. However, where do we draw the line?

Why don't the government just give everybody money to buy a new car? LOL That would save the auto industry!

Perhaps if the Auto execs didn't get paid so much?

21 - 40 of 161 Posts

ebiker

· #21 · Nov 22, 2008

UpstateFella said:
Maybe Mexico might see the demand for bringing these beauties back...

~uf

A beautiful German built 1962 or 63 Type 113? (I used to work on 'em!)

Back to topic, my local Ford dealership is selling new 2008 F150 trucks. Old selling price posted on each truck is $21,995.

NEW selling price posted underneath is....$11,995. Why the huge price difference? Could it be dealer mark up? confused:

BTW, this Ford dealership looks like a BMW or MB boutique.

Faast Ed

Discussion Starter · #22 · Nov 22, 2008

Obviously you guys have never flown commercial. Tell me this, what's it cost the company when there CEO is stuck in a plane on the tarmac for 8 hours? Hello, congress, can we reschedule for tomorrow, I'm stuck at the airport. Quit nit pickin'. Selling some planes and not paying the CEO a few million won't save the company. Get rid of the unions. Because of them $3000 per vehicle goes to pay for health benefits for former employees, and even their spouses. Give me a break!

Well, when I have an important place to be, I allow extra time (to make sure I get there on time). You allow for that chit.

But of course I ain't a multi -millionaire CEO. I'm just a responsible type of person.

BlueGlide05

· #23 · Nov 22, 2008

Bail outs are a tough question. In the Depression the goverment got the banks stable then created jobs. It took 10 years but things got back to normal. Not counting how much WW2 had on everything. We have failed to learn from history. In the 20's people lost focus. Wealth was paper wealth and everybody was in party mode. The past 15 years or so has seen alot of the same. Instead of living within our means it has been get what you want don't worry about debt because thats how you get stuff. In the past money did a circle and stayed in the country. Now with alot of countries buying U S business and stable incomes from a manufactory base gone alot of money leaves for other countries. CEO's in the U S make over 500 times the salary CEO's in other countries make while the workers salary has not kept up. But union labor gets 10 times more flack then tip management. Top management makes bad choices in order to return investmentors with huge quick rewards not planning for the future. At one time you invested in a company that was making a profit for the long haul, now its invest today sell tomorrow driving stock prices to over value prices. Most CEO's of companies need to be fired with no golden parachute. If I screw up bad enough all I get is what pay is owed to me for the time I worked they walk away with millons of dollars. If we want to get out of this mess we need to look in the mirror and stop acting like children. A starter home used to be 3 bedrooms and a bath now its a manison with a unreal mortage and tons of debt buying 2 30,000 cars plus boats, etc.

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Pikeslayer

· #24 · Nov 22, 2008

scottq60 said:
Not sayin' I agree with everything unions do...but let me ask you...are you against workers being able to retire and have a pension and health benefits? Do you believe we should all work until we're too old or sick to work any more then just become homeless bums? Social security (to my knowledge) wasn't enacted as a retirement/pension program...though it's all that many "retired" folk have to survive on nowadays. Poor planning on their part? Maybe...

I gave 20 years of my life in defense of this great country, and because of that, I receive a modest pension and health care benefits...though they're not "free healthcare for life" as I was promised when I enlisted in the Air Force 28 years ago. I consider myself VERY fortunate to have the benefits I receive. My taxes (yes I pay taxes too) and the taxes of millions of working Americans pay for those benefits...but one day Congress could decide I don't deserve them anymore. What would I do then? Live on social security I guess...and what's left of my 401k...until social security is eliminated or runs out of money...whichever comes first.

When those automotive industry workers started their careers, they were told (like me when I joined the Air Force) about certain benefits that they would have upon retirement. My uncle David retired after several years at Fisher Body (Norwood, Ohio).A few of my relatives retired from the "big 3". Since he retired (back in the 80's), he has watched his retirement benefits shrink steadily.

It's easy for people in different circumstances (don't know yours and I'm not singling you out) to piss/moan about pensions and health-care adding $thousands to the price of a new car. Would you rather we (all Americans) have a "one-size-fits-all" standard of living where everyone is equally poor and lacking health-care and other things they've worked hard for many years to achieve?

Seems when everything's booming and everyone's (for the most part) enjoying a modest level of prosperity...that none of these things are that big of a deal...but now that we're in a financial/economic crisis...these things start to be examined with a lot more scrutiny.

Just sayin' :sofa:

"are you against workers being able to retire and have a pension and health benefits? "

I would love for all workers to be able to retire. Just not on any one elses back, that is socialism. Granted, MoCos made promises they couldn't fulfill. What would prompt someone to make such promises? I'm going to venture a guess, the threat of a strike. Those who threatened to strike in hopes of getting better retirement benefits got what was coming. That sounds cold, but it is what it is. Unions had there place years ago when hourly wages couldn't feed a family. We are long past those days. I feel for the people who believed what the Moco promised them. But, honestly, who would entrust there health and livelihood to the people who so many times they have had to strike against. Does that make any sense? My company promises me a pension, am I depending on it? Heck no.

"Do you believe we should all work until we're too old or sick to work any more then just become homeless bums?"

What ever happened to the days of saving for your future? One of my buddies makes about half of what I do. He drives a new Ford truck, and I drive a 1997 Chevy 1/2 ton. 20 years from now when we are both retired does he have the right to bltch about how much he doesn't have?

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Faast Ed

Discussion Starter · #25 · Nov 22, 2008

What ever happened to the days of saving for your future?

Those went away with "25% of your income pays the mortgage/rent". Lower utility and food costs.

scottq60

· #26 · Nov 22, 2008 (Edited)

Pikeslayer said:
"are you against workers being able to retire and have a pension and health benefits? "

I would love for all workers to be able to retire. Just not on any one elses back, that is socialism.

So there should be no military pensions? no social security? So any money that goes from the sale of a new car into the pension/healthcare program is just contributing to socialism??? I don't think so...everyone has a choice to NOT buy that car if they think they're supporting "socialism" by buying it. It's really no one's business that GM or the others worked out a plan with unions to allow the workers to be paid $$xx.xx per hour or have a pension and healthcare when they retire. ON that same note...those automakers made their bed....they need to sink or swim ON THEIR OWN...without your or my tax dollars financing their bad decisions. Unfortunately, if that happens (bankruptcy or outright failure)...it will have a SERIOUS ripple affect on an already troubled economy.

Those companies are no different from our government in that those in power make sure they're taken care of even at the expense of everyone else. Social Security wouldn't be running out of money if Congress would leave it alone and quit borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. The retired autoworkers' pensions would be secure if those in charge kept their promises instead of making sure they get their own millions first.

But that's the ugly side of humanity...it's all about ME, ME, ME... and things are gonna get MUCH uglier as this economic downturn continues...

Pikeslayer said:
My company promises me a pension, am I depending on it? Heck no.

I'm guessing you'll sure be disappointed or pissed if your company goes down the tubes and takes your pension with it.

Pikeslayer said:
What ever happened to the days of saving for your future? One of my buddies makes about half of what I do. He drives a new Ford truck, and I drive a 1997 Chevy 1/2 ton. 20 years from now when we are both retired does he have the right to bltch about how much he doesn't have?

Everyone SHOULD save for their future. Spending 20 years in the military was an investment in my future...that investment should not be threatened by anyone. It was promised to me and all the other veterans who served the time to earn it. Just like the auto workers...and your pension - what is promised should be upheld at ALL costs. Nope...he has no right to bitch...you are doin' what you need to do (driving a 1/2 ton Chevy that's a year newer than my GMC) to prepare for your future.

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Faast Ed

Discussion Starter · #27 · Nov 22, 2008

Nope...he has no right to bitch...you are doin' what you need to do (driving a 1/2 ton Chevy that's a year newer than my GMC) to prepare for your future.

Now if we could have gotten EVERYbody to do that, we could have wiped out the auto industry much sooner.

Faast Ed

Discussion Starter · #28 · Nov 22, 2008

He drives a new Ford truck, and I drive a 1997 Chevy 1/2 ton. 20 years from now when we are both retired does he have the right to bltch about how much he doesn't have?

I know people that pinched pennies all their lives and have nice nest eggs in their retirement. They are bitter about all of the the things they missed out on along the way.

Life is short, you gotta have some fun on the way because those last few years ain't the only ones that count.

Tiwodogis

· #29 · Nov 22, 2008

newultraclassic said:
And if they do go bankrupt in Chapter 11, what will that do to consumer confidence? It will kill the rest of their sales. That's the wordt thing they could do.

What consumer confidence is left? The consumer would have just as much or probably more confidence in them if they knew the company was now on the right track and being monitored.

Pikeslayer

· #30 · Nov 23, 2008

scottq60 said:
So there should be no military pensions? no social security?

You go it. It's real simple pay me for the work I do. I'd rather have $22 an hour an no pension than $20 an hour with a pension. I'll worry about my retirement. I don't want my government or company to be the sole provider for me at time in my life where I am no longer capable of working. One exception, if you see combat, you get a pass.

scottq60 said:
So any money that goes from the sale of a new car into the pension/healthcare program is just contributing to socialism???

Yes. I think that argument could be made. The fruits of the labor of one group of people pay other people that aren't involved in that labor. Sounds like socialism to me.

scottq60 said:
It's really no one's business that GM or the others worked out a plan with unions to allow the workers to be paid $$xx.xx per hour or have a pension and healthcare when they retire.

It is when my tax dollars have to bail them out.

scottq60 said:
ON that same note...those automakers made their bed....they need to sink or swim ON THEIR OWN...without your or my tax dollars financing their bad decisions. Unfortunately, if that happens (bankruptcy or outright failure)...it will have a SERIOUS ripple affect on an already troubled economy.

100% agree with you there.

JBolt

· #31 · Nov 23, 2008

Shouldn't it be called a taxpayer bailout?

BlueGlide05

· #32 · Nov 23, 2008

Somebody help me out here. I'm a 30 year Teamster and I have the back, neck and joint problems that come from hard physical work. When I started 30 years ago I knew that there was no promise that my employement would last for a career. By being union I could count on a decent wage, decent health benifits and a pension. I have not lived like a king but been able to raise 2 kids putting a simple roof over their heads and giving them the experiance of being in scouts, ball, etc. However over the years as corporate america shipped jobs out of country and our goverment has lost money by being inefficent I have watched the middle class decline. For years when unions where strong the middle class grew. If you were not union the companies gave you a decent wage and benifits to keep the union out. And for that I'm called a socialist. Let me tell you what a socialist is. A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries, who has health benifits that heads of goverments have. A stock plan (retirement plan) that will let him travel the world several times over in his old age and if he screws up at his job he gets millions to walk away. Anybody who thinks american workers in this day and age can be paid $20 with no pension instead of $22 and a pension that should be as protected as the CEO's is either out of touch with financial reality or is still too young to be thinking about it (nothing personnel but I'm 58 and looking at retirement in 4 more years or I was).

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IA Fatty

· #33 · Nov 23, 2008

While we're throwing the Automakers under the bus, What about the 300 Billion the gov. already gave the banking system??? What good has it done for anybody??? I have a hand I could put out.

scottq60

· #34 · Nov 23, 2008

BlueGlide05 said:
Somebody help me out here. I'm a 30 year Teamster and I have the back, neck and joint problems that come from hard physical work. When I started 30 years ago I knew that there was no promise that my employement would last for a career. By being union I could count on a decent wage, decent health benifits and a pension. I have not lived like a king but been able to raise 2 kids putting a simple roof over their heads and giving them the experiance of being in scouts, ball, etc. However over the years as corporate america shipped jobs out of country and our goverment has lost money by being inefficent I have watched the middle class decline. For years when unions where strong the middle class grew. If you were not union the companies gave you a decent wage and benifits to keep the union out. And for that I'm called a socialist. Let me tell you what a socialist is. A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries, who has health benifits that heads of goverments have. A stock plan (retirement plan) that will let him travel the world several times over in his old age and if he screws up at his job he gets millions to walk away. Anybody who thinks american workers in this day and age can be paid $20 with no pension instead of $22 and a pension that should be as protected as the CEO's is either out of touch with financial reality or is still too young to be thinking about it (nothing personnel but I'm 58 and looking at retirement in 4 more years or I was).

I'm with ya...seems to me that (at least some) folks who are against unions/pensions/healthcare plans...may just be a bit envious of those who have EARNED them....

I thought it curious that Pikeslayer mentioned "if you see combat" as a worthwhile reason for getting a pension. I guess my 20 years of service are nullified because I only maintained the nuclear arsenal that WON the cold war with Russia. I wasn't dodgin' bullets, so I'm not worthy of my pension/healthcare...even though I volunteered to go to the desert back in '91. Dammit!!! I knew I should've insisted they let me go...:hystria:

MountainMan

· #35 · Nov 23, 2008

It's going to be a terrible loss of jobs, but I see no way for government to bail out this failed industry. They are making cars most people don't want any more, and they don't have a plan for how to get out of the ditch. I had to laugh when I saw that GM has come out with a hybrid Escalade. That is precisely what is wrong with the American auto industry today; they have no clue what people want.

MM

Faast Ed

Discussion Starter · #36 · Nov 23, 2008 (Edited)

People have no money for cars. Feeding the auto industry billions of tax dollars will only be a temporary fix. What will that money do if cars ain't selling? What do they do, keep making cars then storing them somewhere (just to keep the workers busy)?

How can they stay in business when people can't afford cars.

Me thinks the bailout money needs to be focused elswhere. (Not sure where, but I don't see it doing us any good in the CEO's pockets).

Granted the Steel Mills and all supporting businesses are suffering (badly around here in NW Indiana), but I still don't see how giving the automakers money will help sell cars (that use this steel).
Seems to me it would help pay utilities and CEO's paychecks while the plants stand idle. Might as well give the Steel Mills their cut too!

Let's just give everybody some money. Merry Christmas! Ho Ho Ho!

Pikeslayer

· #37 · Nov 23, 2008

BlueGlide05 said:
Somebody help me out here. I'm a 30 year Teamster and I have the back, neck and joint problems that come from hard physical work. When I started 30 years ago I knew that there was no promise that my employement would last for a career. By being union I could count on a decent wage, decent health benifits and a pension. I have not lived like a king but been able to raise 2 kids putting a simple roof over their heads and giving them the experiance of being in scouts, ball, etc. However over the years as corporate america shipped jobs out of country and our goverment has lost money by being inefficent I have watched the middle class decline. For years when unions where strong the middle class grew. If you were not union the companies gave you a decent wage and benifits to keep the union out. And for that I'm called a socialist. Let me tell you what a socialist is. A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries, who has health benifits that heads of goverments have. A stock plan (retirement plan) that will let him travel the world several times over in his old age and if he screws up at his job he gets millions to walk away. Anybody who thinks american workers in this day and age can be paid $20 with no pension instead of $22 and a pension that should be as protected as the CEO's is either out of touch with financial reality or is still too young to be thinking about it (nothing personnel but I'm 58 and looking at retirement in 4 more years or I was).

And for that I'm called a socialist.

First of all, I didn't call anyone a socialist. I just pointed out a socialist theme.

Anybody who thinks american workers in this day and age can be paid $20 with no pension instead of $22 and a pension that should be as protected as the CEO's is either out of touch with financial reality or is still too young to be thinking about it

The $20 with pension $22 without was an example. The point was that I would rather have an additional 10% to invest for my future as opposed to letting someone else do it for me.

A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries, who has health benifits that heads of goverments have. A stock plan (retirement plan) that will let him travel the world several times over in his old age and if he screws up at his job he gets millions to walk away.

Here we go, back to class warfare. What do you suggest? Will you determine the CEO's compensation? Who will? Suggesting anybody else do it is a step towards socialism.

I agree with you on one point here. I'm not a fan of the golden parachute. I also think CEO's compensation (up to 50%) be tied to company performance.

Folks, at the end of the day this is America. This country offers all of us a chance at prosperity, not a promise of prosperity. If anyone of us doesn't like our situation, there is no other place on earth that offers a better environment to change our situation.

pspez

· #38 · Nov 23, 2008

I think evryone is over thinking. If each US born citizen over the age of 21 were to recieve $300,000.00 and tax it, all economic problems will stop!! I know that the idea is radical but, it will work. If anyone can give me a down side to this please inlighten me.Seriously. I am not been a sarcasitc.

scottq60

· #39 · Nov 23, 2008

Why should every US born citizen over the age of 21 be GIVEN anything???
That's the problem with a HUGE portion of the population...a sense of entitlement...

BlueGlide05

· #40 · Nov 23, 2008

MountainMan said:
It's going to be a terrible loss of jobs, but I see no way for government to bail out this failed industry. They are making cars most people don't want any more, and they don't have a plan for how to get out of the ditch. I had to laugh when I saw that GM has come out with a hybrid Escalade. That is precisely what is wrong with the American auto industry today; they have no clue what people want.

MM

You hit the nail on the head. I saw a newscast where Nissan is investing heavy on electric cars to be on the streets by 2011. While at the Saturn plant I read a newsletter from GM management they are stopping development on a car that gets 40 miles a gallon to concentrate on conventional production. Asleep at the wheel. While they were flying in their private jets someone lower the oxygen in their cabins.

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