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Government needs to bailout Motor Cycle manufacturers

8802 Views 160 Replies 42 Participants Last post by  scottq60
Just kidding.

Is it right for the government to bail out the Automakers, and not all the other businesses?

Granted: if the automakers die so do the steelmakers and all the smaller supporting industries. However, where do we draw the line?

Why don't the government just give everybody money to buy a new car? LOL That would save the auto industry!

Perhaps if the Auto execs didn't get paid so much?
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Bail outs are a tough question. In the Depression the goverment got the banks stable then created jobs. It took 10 years but things got back to normal. Not counting how much WW2 had on everything. We have failed to learn from history. In the 20's people lost focus. Wealth was paper wealth and everybody was in party mode. The past 15 years or so has seen alot of the same. Instead of living within our means it has been get what you want don't worry about debt because thats how you get stuff. In the past money did a circle and stayed in the country. Now with alot of countries buying U S business and stable incomes from a manufactory base gone alot of money leaves for other countries. CEO's in the U S make over 500 times the salary CEO's in other countries make while the workers salary has not kept up. But union labor gets 10 times more flack then tip management. Top management makes bad choices in order to return investmentors with huge quick rewards not planning for the future. At one time you invested in a company that was making a profit for the long haul, now its invest today sell tomorrow driving stock prices to over value prices. Most CEO's of companies need to be fired with no golden parachute. If I screw up bad enough all I get is what pay is owed to me for the time I worked they walk away with millons of dollars. If we want to get out of this mess we need to look in the mirror and stop acting like children. A starter home used to be 3 bedrooms and a bath now its a manison with a unreal mortage and tons of debt buying 2 30,000 cars plus boats, etc.
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Somebody help me out here. I'm a 30 year Teamster and I have the back, neck and joint problems that come from hard physical work. When I started 30 years ago I knew that there was no promise that my employement would last for a career. By being union I could count on a decent wage, decent health benifits and a pension. I have not lived like a king but been able to raise 2 kids putting a simple roof over their heads and giving them the experiance of being in scouts, ball, etc. However over the years as corporate america shipped jobs out of country and our goverment has lost money by being inefficent I have watched the middle class decline. For years when unions where strong the middle class grew. If you were not union the companies gave you a decent wage and benifits to keep the union out. And for that I'm called a socialist. Let me tell you what a socialist is. A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries, who has health benifits that heads of goverments have. A stock plan (retirement plan) that will let him travel the world several times over in his old age and if he screws up at his job he gets millions to walk away. Anybody who thinks american workers in this day and age can be paid $20 with no pension instead of $22 and a pension that should be as protected as the CEO's is either out of touch with financial reality or is still too young to be thinking about it (nothing personnel but I'm 58 and looking at retirement in 4 more years or I was).
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It's going to be a terrible loss of jobs, but I see no way for government to bail out this failed industry. They are making cars most people don't want any more, and they don't have a plan for how to get out of the ditch. I had to laugh when I saw that GM has come out with a hybrid Escalade. That is precisely what is wrong with the American auto industry today; they have no clue what people want.

You hit the nail on the head. I saw a newscast where Nissan is investing heavy on electric cars to be on the streets by 2011. While at the Saturn plant I read a newsletter from GM management they are stopping development on a car that gets 40 miles a gallon to concentrate on conventional production. Asleep at the wheel. While they were flying in their private jets someone lower the oxygen in their cabins.
First of all, I didn't call anyone a socialist. I just pointed out a socialist theme.

The $20 with pension $22 without was an example. The point was that I would rather have an additional 10% to invest for my future as opposed to letting someone else do it for me.

Here we go, back to class warfare. What do you suggest? Will you determine the CEO's compensation? Who will? Suggesting anybody else do it is a step towards socialism.

I agree with you on one point here. I'm not a fan of the golden parachute. I also think CEO's compensation (up to 50%) be tied to company performance.

Folks, at the end of the day this is America. This country offers all of us a chance at prosperity, not a promise of prosperity. If anyone of us doesn't like our situation, there is no other place on earth that offers a better environment to change our situation.
I am pointing out a socialist theme also. That is goverment protection for corporate America.

As far a CEO's salary. In the 1950's Europe and Japan CEO's were around 20% higher then the lower management and hourly workers. In the U. S. its was 50%. Now the Europe and Japan companies are only 2 to 4% higher while American CEO's are making 600 times more then their workers. The workers salary has not even kept up with inflation.

Now I am going to step on some toes here. I come in contact with a very large group of workers in all service and manufactoring situations. I here all the time everybody wants to come here from every country in the world. Look around folks. Do you see thousands of Germans, French or English here. No you see people from poor undeveloped countries who come here. And while they are wage slaves being taken advantage of my companies for their cheap labor they are still better off then in their home countries. They few Europeans I come in contact with are skilled workers who are paid well to fill jobs our schools are not training the average students to do. In the 50's the U.S. was the place to be number 1 in the world. Now according to the World Health agency we are number 9. With health, education, jobs and life being the markers. Read the papers we are overweight, out of shape and employers are complaining they are not getting high school grads you are able to do the job. This is from all news sources conservation and liberal. If anyone has read anything differnt please sit me right. Our grandparents and parents worked hard to live and fought for workers rights not counting 2 wars to make this a country for the people not for corporate welfare. I respect anyone's right to their view and to state that view , that is the only right we have left but if we don't wake up and make this country work for us we are going to go bankrupt like the Soviet Union did and be at mercy of countries we owe money to because we don't want to pay taxes to keep America ours. As far as killing terrorist I'm all for that butBush may have made more then he killed.
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I'm with ya...seems to me that (at least some) folks who are against unions/pensions/healthcare plans...may just be a bit envious of those who have EARNED them....

I thought it curious that Pikeslayer mentioned "if you see combat" as a worthwhile reason for getting a pension. I guess my 20 years of service are nullified because I only maintained the nuclear arsenal that WON the cold war with Russia. I wasn't dodgin' bullets, so I'm not worthy of my pension/healthcare...even though I volunteered to go to the desert back in '91. Dammit!!! I knew I should've insisted they let me go...:hystria:
You had a job where as far I'm concerned you've earned a pension and the health care that should come with it.
I think evryone is over thinking. If each US born citizen over the age of 21 were to recieve $300,000.00 and tax it, all economic problems will stop!! I know that the idea is radical but, it will work. If anyone can give me a down side to this please inlighten me.Seriously. I am not been a sarcasitc.
As for thinking outside the box I would buy you a beer for that idea. Since I cann't I'll just drink one for you.

Before things get out of hand let me state I respect Pikeslayers view point. Debate should be at the heart of American values. I would ride with him, buy him a beer and if some punk would try to steal his bike he would not want me to be around.

Now we have shared that Kodak moment I still think he's wrong.
Pikeslayer maybe I stated this wrong, European and Japan CEO's now make around 24% more then lower management and hourly workers. This was according to a article in the Wall Street Journal I read while in the doctors office. Also since in Europe there are socialists systems perspectives may be off. My point is American CEO's are way overpaid for the level of success American companies are at.

Now I would like to say I hold no resentment towards a person who was either lucky enough to go to a ivy league college or a person who went to a state university and worked their way up to be a SUCCESSFUL leader of their company. They earned to live in a gated community and all the glitter that comes with it. I choose a differnt route. After some college I dropped out and went into the warehouseing and trucking industry. After landing a union job I was able to lead a life of sports skydiving, cliff climbing, hunting etc. Then I rasied a family in small houses driving used cars. Every motorcycle I have had including the Harley I ride today came with hard work I feel every day I wake up. I wouldn't have it any other way and would not change it if I could. The reason I enjoy riding my bike is the fact I've earned it. I'm not whining I'm pissed off my kids don't have the same options I had in my 20's.

As far as if a person doesn't like his job he can go elsewhere and "command" a higher salary please post your location I'm sure thousands of people will love to know where it is.
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As a 30 year Teamster and having worked at 4 union freight companies I can explain how work classification works in freight.

The company judges the work load at a local dock. The bids reflect jobs needed. If work runs out in a bid such as swithing the junior man is moved to a class that needs extra manpower. On the flip side if switching is heavy the senior dock man is offered the work down the line. If nobody takes it the junior man is forced to switch. The protection to the labor force is everyone is a 8 hour guarantee a day and 40 hour week. If work slows down a layoff happens with the senior layoff person called in to work as needed. If you work 1 day on layoff then you are commited to come to work when called. Layoff hours worked add people back to active status. Sounds flexable to me.

As far as management and labor working together to come up with better production several time we have formed commities of management and labor. The only ideas that come out of these commities are ones that management goes along with no matter how good the idea is labor puts forth. Oh there's a big psych on the companies part to make it look like its a joint idea but it not. I stopped being on these meetings years ago as most of the higher experianced people have. The only people who takes part now is the yes men of the labor force who wants to sit in a air conditioned room drinking coffee and eating doughnuts.

Our CEO who was hired some years ago took over form people who lead a successful company. There was no commities then management did their job and labor did theirs we were the most successful frieght company out there. If we lost money in a quarter they sit down and corrected the problem. This guy has ran the company to the ground. He took a 3.5 million bonus when the company was loseing money and the next month he stopped matching funds into the managements 401k. His contract says if the company wants to get rid of him he has to paid 100 million to leave. Now they are meeting with the union and they want us to take a $1 on the hour cut in pay to keep the company afloat. And this is suppose to be the unions fault?
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There is another side to that coin. This is a whole other argument. Here is quick test: Ask a rich guy which he would rather invest in, an investment whose profits will be taxed at 28%, or an investment whose profits will be taxed at 15%. I think we all know the answer.

Found this on Wikipedia:

Empirical support

According to a 1996 study[26] from the libertarian think tank Cato Institute:

* On 8 of the 10 key economic variables examined, the American economy performed better during the Reagan years than during the pre- and post-Reagan years.
* Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years.
* Interest rates, inflation, and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did immediately before or after his presidency.
* The only economic variable that was worse in the Reagan period than in both the pre- and post-Reagan years was the savings rate, which fell rapidly in the 1980s.
* The productivity rate was higher in the pre-Reagan years but much lower in the post-Reagan years.
Hey Pike hate to tell you this but Wikipedia is a very interesting but very unreliable source of information. Not that what you read is false but I wouldn't take it to the bank. I've never tried it but people can edit content. So I've heard but never had time to try it. Check it out.
I agree 100% evodog, we need to wake up and quit being pissed on...... by the way, I have a 91 Ford Aerostar with 242,000 miles on it, the damn thing just keeps going like the Energizer battery.........:thumbsup:
97 GMC Jimmy 257,000, 95 Jeep 157,000. Had nothing but American cars and drove the bodies off them engines kept on going. Change the oil and lube is the secret. I've seen as many rice burners go down without proper maintenance as I've seen American. Plus you can mistreat American V6 and V8 much more then rice burners.
So we have bailed out the big investment banks and not only has it not freed up credit but it seems we have no way of tracking what has happened to the money.

So we don't bail out the big 3 and they go into chapter 11. They stay open but unknown numbers of people lose their jobs due to much lower parts demand. I'm not talking about car workers I'm talking about small town America. I pick up at 3 locations in Columbia Tn. that supply parts which are already laying off people due to lack of demand.

The big 3 are loans, the big investment banks are stock ownership that the goverment doesn't even have voting rights in. Sounds like once again the American worker takes it in the can.

If we weren't going to do one , then we shouldn't have done the other. In the Great Depression the private banks were made secure in order to restore confidence and make loans to small bussiness and goverment programs to create jobs were made. The stock market was allowed to tank and The SEC and other regulation was created. It took 10 years but everything including the enviormental problems from over farming in the west was solved. We didn't learn from history and removed regulation from the securities markets and again we are overfarming the west in a dry climate. If you liked the Great Depression 1 your going to love number 2.
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Yeah, I'm sure I can go out around town right now and buy an American made television or a pair of jeans.

Communist China.

What makes you think cars will be any different than anything else?
Plus at one time American owned companies kept money in this county. With other countries owning these companies the cycle is broken and money flows out of this country.
This is a case of not seeing the trees for the forest.

1. American upper auto management is paid much more then Japanese upper management. Perhaps if Coorker had also included upper management also lower their wage and benifits the UAW would had been agreeable.

2. The pay UAW workers receive is not what is hurting the big 3. It's the health package for the retired workers and the layoff package. Again if upper management would take hits in these areas the UAW world be more willing to take the same cuts. If a upper manager gets canned they walk with a huge pay package and if they retire they have a quality health plan.

3. I know some auto workers. The base pay without overtime is around 70,000 a year a decent salary. If they work overtime and live at the job 7 days a week or 10 to 12 hours a day they can earn around 100,000. IS THIS NOT THE AMERICAN WAY WORK HARD AND REAP THE BENIFITS!!!!! If a worker wants to live at their jobs in order to send kids to college, provide a quality life for their family or put back money for retirement whats wrong with that. A upper management emplyee comes to work and maybe puts in 2/3's of that time and makes 100's of thousands a year or even millions buy sitting behind a desk but a blue collar worker who does physical work is not entitled to the chance to have a decent pay.

If Coorker wants to level the playing field then do it on all levels. But when he owned a construction company here in Tennessee he used illegal workers at low wages which is a huge problem in the construction business and has lower wages and kept them at levels of 20 years ago. No wonder he doesn't want his elitest buddies to take hard cuts.

When people in this country get their heads out of the sand and read some real history not the whitewashed propaganda that is put out by the corporate goverment which rules this country now we will learn that everthing our parnets and grandparents fought for we have let slip away. And while billions of dollars have been given to wall street with no oversite and no say in whats happened to it go into corporate coffers we are taking it out on the American worker once again. What about that giveaway! Where is the freed up credit that was supposed to accomplish.

We have a right to petition the goverment but try to go down to the floor on state or federal levels and sit with your elected official, sorry your seat is taken by a corporate lobbiest, you will be escorted out and if you protest you will be arrested. Write a letter- sure, you will get a nice form letter in reply thanking you for your concern but be assured you elected official is acting in you best interest.

And all the while the people who are getting hurt defends all this. Anybody making 250,000 a year or more please stand up.
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