[Pikeslayer]

Just kidding.

Is it right for the government to bail out the Automakers, and not all the other businesses?

Granted: if the automakers die so do the steelmakers and all the smaller supporting industries. However, where do we draw the line?

Why don't the government just give everybody money to buy a new car? LOL That would save the auto industry!

Perhaps if the Auto execs didn't get paid so much?

It makes me sick when people play this class warfare game. If you have a problem with how much money someone makes then you are obviously against the American dream. Be mad at the CEO because his company is failing, not because he makes what you think is too much. Be mad at the board that elected him.

I'm not in favor of a bailout if the CEO's aren't willing to take pay cuts and sell the jets. Fomoco CEO said he was fine with his 9.3 mill a year. Also 1 out of 10 jobs in the U S is automotive related.

That's just the problem, Jim....they did.

What do you think it cost their companies to fly from the Detroit area to Washington, D.C. just one-way using the corporate jets? The cost of the fuel alone must be staggering!

It would have been far, far cheaper for them to fly commercial. Even in first-class it would have been a huge cost savings!

That being said, I doubt we would ever see the CEO of one of the Big Three auto makers flying coach on a commercial flight...but if things keep going the way they are, they will not have a choice!



Cheers

I just thought it was funny that the CEOs went to Washington begging for money to bail out their companies, and took MILLION DOLLAR PRIVATE JETS:hystria:
They have to be the most retarded people I've seen, and then when asked to take a salary cut out of good faith... THEY REFUSED
Let them fail.... Their EGOS WILL BE TO BLAME

Obviously you guys have never flown commercial. Tell me this, what's it cost the company when there CEO is stuck in a plane on the tarmac for 8 hours? Hello, congress, can we reschedule for tomorrow, I'm stuck at the airport. Quit nit pickin'. Selling some planes and not paying the CEO a few million won't save the company. Get rid of the unions. Because of them $3000 per vehicle goes to pay for health benefits for former employees, and even their spouses. Give me a break!

 

[Pikeslayer]

Not sayin' I agree with everything unions do...but let me ask you...are you against workers being able to retire and have a pension and health benefits? Do you believe we should all work until we're too old or sick to work any more then just become homeless bums? Social security (to my knowledge) wasn't enacted as a retirement/pension program...though it's all that many "retired" folk have to survive on nowadays. Poor planning on their part? Maybe...

I gave 20 years of my life in defense of this great country, and because of that, I receive a modest pension and health care benefits...though they're not "free healthcare for life" as I was promised when I enlisted in the Air Force 28 years ago. I consider myself VERY fortunate to have the benefits I receive. My taxes (yes I pay taxes too) and the taxes of millions of working Americans pay for those benefits...but one day Congress could decide I don't deserve them anymore. What would I do then? Live on social security I guess...and what's left of my 401k...until social security is eliminated or runs out of money...whichever comes first.

When those automotive industry workers started their careers, they were told (like me when I joined the Air Force) about certain benefits that they would have upon retirement. My uncle David retired after several years at Fisher Body (Norwood, Ohio).A few of my relatives retired from the "big 3". Since he retired (back in the 80's), he has watched his retirement benefits shrink steadily.

It's easy for people in different circumstances (don't know yours and I'm not singling you out) to piss/moan about pensions and health-care adding $thousands to the price of a new car. Would you rather we (all Americans) have a "one-size-fits-all" standard of living where everyone is equally poor and lacking health-care and other things they've worked hard for many years to achieve?

Seems when everything's booming and everyone's (for the most part) enjoying a modest level of prosperity...that none of these things are that big of a deal...but now that we're in a financial/economic crisis...these things start to be examined with a lot more scrutiny.

Just sayin' :sofa:

"are you against workers being able to retire and have a pension and health benefits? "

I would love for all workers to be able to retire. Just not on any one elses back, that is socialism. Granted, MoCos made promises they couldn't fulfill. What would prompt someone to make such promises? I'm going to venture a guess, the threat of a strike. Those who threatened to strike in hopes of getting better retirement benefits got what was coming. That sounds cold, but it is what it is. Unions had there place years ago when hourly wages couldn't feed a family. We are long past those days. I feel for the people who believed what the Moco promised them. But, honestly, who would entrust there health and livelihood to the people who so many times they have had to strike against. Does that make any sense? My company promises me a pension, am I depending on it? Heck no.

"Do you believe we should all work until we're too old or sick to work any more then just become homeless bums?"

What ever happened to the days of saving for your future? One of my buddies makes about half of what I do. He drives a new Ford truck, and I drive a 1997 Chevy 1/2 ton. 20 years from now when we are both retired does he have the right to bltch about how much he doesn't have?

 

[Pikeslayer]

So there should be no military pensions? no social security?

You go it. It's real simple pay me for the work I do. I'd rather have $22 an hour an no pension than $20 an hour with a pension. I'll worry about my retirement. I don't want my government or company to be the sole provider for me at time in my life where I am no longer capable of working. One exception, if you see combat, you get a pass.

So any money that goes from the sale of a new car into the pension/healthcare program is just contributing to socialism???

Yes. I think that argument could be made. The fruits of the labor of one group of people pay other people that aren't involved in that labor. Sounds like socialism to me.

It's really no one's business that GM or the others worked out a plan with unions to allow the workers to be paid $$xx.xx per hour or have a pension and healthcare when they retire.

It is when my tax dollars have to bail them out.

ON that same note...those automakers made their bed....they need to sink or swim ON THEIR OWN...without your or my tax dollars financing their bad decisions. Unfortunately, if that happens (bankruptcy or outright failure)...it will have a SERIOUS ripple affect on an already troubled economy.

100% agree with you there.

 

[Pikeslayer]

Somebody help me out here. I'm a 30 year Teamster and I have the back, neck and joint problems that come from hard physical work. When I started 30 years ago I knew that there was no promise that my employement would last for a career. By being union I could count on a decent wage, decent health benifits and a pension. I have not lived like a king but been able to raise 2 kids putting a simple roof over their heads and giving them the experiance of being in scouts, ball, etc. However over the years as corporate america shipped jobs out of country and our goverment has lost money by being inefficent I have watched the middle class decline. For years when unions where strong the middle class grew. If you were not union the companies gave you a decent wage and benifits to keep the union out. And for that I'm called a socialist. Let me tell you what a socialist is. A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries, who has health benifits that heads of goverments have. A stock plan (retirement plan) that will let him travel the world several times over in his old age and if he screws up at his job he gets millions to walk away. Anybody who thinks american workers in this day and age can be paid $20 with no pension instead of $22 and a pension that should be as protected as the CEO's is either out of touch with financial reality or is still too young to be thinking about it (nothing personnel but I'm 58 and looking at retirement in 4 more years or I was).

And for that I'm called a socialist.

First of all, I didn't call anyone a socialist. I just pointed out a socialist theme.

Anybody who thinks american workers in this day and age can be paid $20 with no pension instead of $22 and a pension that should be as protected as the CEO's is either out of touch with financial reality or is still too young to be thinking about it

The $20 with pension $22 without was an example. The point was that I would rather have an additional 10% to invest for my future as opposed to letting someone else do it for me.

A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries, who has health benifits that heads of goverments have. A stock plan (retirement plan) that will let him travel the world several times over in his old age and if he screws up at his job he gets millions to walk away.

Here we go, back to class warfare. What do you suggest? Will you determine the CEO's compensation? Who will? Suggesting anybody else do it is a step towards socialism.

I agree with you on one point here. I'm not a fan of the golden parachute. I also think CEO's compensation (up to 50%) be tied to company performance.

Folks, at the end of the day this is America. This country offers all of us a chance at prosperity, not a promise of prosperity. If anyone of us doesn't like our situation, there is no other place on earth that offers a better environment to change our situation.

 

[Pikeslayer]

I am pointing out a socialist theme also. That is goverment protection for corporate America.

As far a CEO's salary. In the 1950's Europe and Japan CEO's were around 20% higher then the lower management and hourly workers. In the U. S. its was 50%. Now the Europe and Japan companies are only 2 to 4% higher while American CEO's are making 600 times more then their workers. The workers salary has not even kept up with inflation.

Now I am going to step on some toes here. I come in contact with a very large group of workers in all service and manufactoring situations. I here all the time everybody wants to come here from every country in the world. Look around folks. Do you see thousands of Germans, French or English here. No you see people from poor undeveloped countries who come here. And while they are wage slaves being taken advantage of my companies for their cheap labor they are still better off then in their home countries. They few Europeans I come in contact with are skilled workers who are paid well to fill jobs our schools are not training the average students to do. In the 50's the U.S. was the place to be number 1 in the world. Now according to the World Health agency we are number 9. With health, education, jobs and life being the markers. Read the papers we are overweight, out of shape and employers are complaining they are not getting high school grads you are able to do the job. This is from all news sources conservation and liberal. If anyone has read anything differnt please sit me right. Our grandparents and parents worked hard to live and fought for workers rights not counting 2 wars to make this a country for the people not for corporate welfare. I respect anyone's right to their view and to state that view , that is the only right we have left but if we don't wake up and make this country work for us we are going to go bankrupt like the Soviet Union did and be at mercy of countries we owe money to because we don't want to pay taxes to keep America ours. As far as killing terrorist I'm all for that butBush may have made more then he killed.

As far a CEO's salary. In the 1950's Europe and Japan CEO's were around 20% higher then the lower management and hourly workers. In the U. S. its was 50%. Now the Europe and Japan companies are only 2 to 4% higher while American CEO's are making 600 times more then their workers. The workers salary has not even kept up with inflation.

Now you are whining. In this country you can command what ever pay you want. Are you complaining that the CEO makes too much, or workers don't make enough? Workers are free to go get another high paying job. I did. After high school I went to college, couldn't stand it, so I quit. Became a roofer, this put college into perspective, so I borrowed as much money as I could and went back to school. Worked a semester, went to school a semester. Did this until I graduated. 12 years later and I am still paying off student loans.

Just what is it that you want? And from who do you want it?

Now the Europe and Japan companies are only 2 to 4% higher while American CEO's are making 600 times more then their workers.

I'm not buying that European CEO's are only making 4% more than workers. If that's the case, why isn't there a mass exodus of CEO's from Europe to the U.S.

What a C.E.O. commands in salary is up to the CEO. If the market will bear it so be it. This is the free market system. It is up to the individual worker, the business owner, the CEO, or whoever to determine what they want in compensation. If the market won't bear it, they won't have a job. It has worked for over 200 years here. Again, if you go dictating what someone else's pay is your headed towards socialism.

 

[Pikeslayer]

As far as if a person doesn't like his job he can go elsewhere and "command" a higher salary please post your location I'm sure thousands of people will love to know where it is.

It's not a matter of moving. It's a matter of obtaining the skills, training, or credentials needed to change ones career. I gave my example (college to roofing to back to college).

Heck, go into business for yourself. There is no easy way. There are no guarantees. This is what I love about this country.

Here's a good story:
A buddy of mine was a machinist working for a company that was being shut down. Him and his friend decided they would open up there own shop. They took out a loan, leased a small building, bought a chop saw, a Bridgeport, and a lathe and hung their sign out. At the time my buddy had a wife and 3 kids, so he had to take a 2nd shift job as well as working at his business during the day. Now they are successful and have 7 employees.

Here's the point: He wasn't satisfied. He was ticked that his future was in the hands of someone else, so he went out on his own, and commanded his own salary. He busted his a$$ and it payed off.

 

[Pikeslayer]

First of all, I don't beleive that we should bail out all those pigs at the top giving themselves 30,000,000.00 bonus all the while their companies and employees lose. If we are to give anyone anything it should be from the bottom up. People would buy homes, pay off loans, buy cars, and pumping money into our economy. I am more conservitive than liberal. Its not an entitalment it is a stimulas to the people instead of corrupt CEOs.

I am more conservitive than liberal.

Obviously not. Conservatives don't believe in income redistribution.

 

[Pikeslayer]

For those of you who think Obama cares, you're wrong. If he cared, all he would have to do is make a statement promising not to raise taxes on anyone for the next 2 years. The stock market would sky rocket. This stock market crash should be no surprise. When you campaign for a year telling everyone that you want the capital gains tax to go from 15% to 28%, what do you think people are going to do, buy stock?

 

[Pikeslayer]

People need to get their heads out of the sand. Wake up. When corporate CEOs are paying themselves hundreds of millions of dollars when people are losing jobs, is criminal. I am sure you believe in job performance. Where is YOUR moral backbone? It seems to me that people would rather have the economy tank just to stand on an misconceived idea that the trickle down might work. I believed in it with Reagan. Did it work? It didn't.

Wake up. When corporate CEOs are paying themselves hundreds of millions of dollars when people are losing jobs, is criminal.

CEO's don't pay themselves, the board of directors approve their salary. So, what, every time a company has to lay people off we should renegotiate the CEO's compensation package? Good luck finding a CEO who sign up for that. This is why you aren't a CEO, or on a board of directors.

I am sure you believe in job performance.

Yes I do. I think I have already stated that.

Where is YOUR moral backbone?

So you are saying it is moral for someone other than the board to determine the compensation of its CEO? Some outside entity should dictate some kind of cap? If you believe this you are in the wrong country. Keep going down that path and nobody will want to take their company public. Now that would be a serious financial crisis.

 

[Pikeslayer]

The market is currently not "bearing" it. Hello?

When the company does well he should get it, when the company does poorly he should get a more realistic wage. (Not go crying to the Government for help instead).

Last time I checked, CEOs were still getting paid. So, yeah, the market is bearing it. Typically there bonuses are tied to company performance. You can't tie their entire compensation to company performance, nobody would take that job.

The crying they are doing to the government is to save the company. Not their own butt, well maybe a little of their own butt, but they can always get another CEO job if the MOCO fails.

 

[Pikeslayer]

....It seems to me that people would rather have the economy tank just to stand on an misconceived idea that the trickle down might work. I believed in it with Reagan. Did it work? It didn't.

There is another side to that coin. This is a whole other argument. Here is quick test: Ask a rich guy which he would rather invest in, an investment whose profits will be taxed at 28%, or an investment whose profits will be taxed at 15%. I think we all know the answer.

Found this on Wikipedia:

Empirical support

According to a 1996 study[26] from the libertarian think tank Cato Institute:

* On 8 of the 10 key economic variables examined, the American economy performed better during the Reagan years than during the pre- and post-Reagan years.
* Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years.
* Interest rates, inflation, and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did immediately before or after his presidency.
* The only economic variable that was worse in the Reagan period than in both the pre- and post-Reagan years was the savings rate, which fell rapidly in the 1980s.
* The productivity rate was higher in the pre-Reagan years but much lower in the post-Reagan years.

 

[Pikeslayer]

Hey Pikeslayer, you are like an open book and a very typical Republican Engineer !


Do you know what Engineer's use for birth control ?


Their personalities ! :spank:

You need to get a clue, there aren't any CEO's out there that give a Rat's A$$ about YOU !
Also George W. can't even speak in normal sentences..........some HERO. He don't give a Rat's A$$ about you either !

Yeah I'm one of those so called over paid union workers that get's Damn tired of field Engineering some Engineer's project that looks good on paper, but in no way can work in the REAL WORLD ! Now who's overpaid....Mr. Engineer ?

Now you may flame away..............:hystria:

Hey Pikeslayer, you are like an open book and a very typical Republican Engineer !

Thank you. Actually I consider myself a conservative, it just happens that traditionally (maybe not lately) the Republican party has been the most conservative.

Do you know what Engineer's use for birth control ?


Their personalities !

I see you'll have alot to offer to this thread.

You need to get a clue, there aren't any CEO's out there that give a Rat's A$$ about YOU !
Also George W. can't even speak in normal sentences..........some HERO. He don't give a Rat's A$$ about you either !

You see this is the difference between you and I. I don't want or need my government to care about me or for me. All I ask them to do is protect the borders. Other than that, I wish they would get out of the way of my and others prosperity.

Yeah I'm one of those so called over paid union workers that get's Damn tired of field Engineering some Engineer's project that looks good on paper, but in no way can work in the REAL WORLD ! Now who's overpaid....Mr. Engineer ?

Is your intent to just insult those who disagree with you? I have met some of the engineers you describe, but most of us can get the job done. I find the easiest way to get to a solution is to work with the people who are having the issue, this is the assembly line where I work as I support production. I have never worked in a Union shop, but from what I hear it is difficult to get things accomplished due to stringent job descriptions. Where I work, when there is an issue, I go to the line and one of the guys usually says something like, "here, you try and install this". So I pick up the tools and parts and give it ashot. By trying it myself I see firsthand the trouble they are having. Then we work together to fix the problem. I'm guessing this doesn't happen much in a union shop. It is probably against the rules for an engineer to work on the assembly line. Maybe this why you're view of engineers is jaded.

 

[Pikeslayer]

Hey Pike hate to tell you this but Wikipedia is a very interesting but very unreliable source of information. Not that what you read is false but I wouldn't take it to the bank. I've never tried it but people can edit content. So I've heard but never had time to try it. Check it out.

Yeah, I know, that's why I quoted my source. What I read doesn't sound too far off base. If you find a better source, let me know.

 

[Pikeslayer]

Uniondog you made some excellent points.
The things I am about to write are from experience, common sense, and just plain reality(52 years worth).
First, history shows us that prior to the inception of unions, the only people making a "decent" living was management. Management even hired thugs and gangsters to keep unions out, they had money for that but not for the work done by their employees ? Believe me, non union shops would not even be possible without the threat of orginization looming all around us !
If anyone were to look at corporate finances you would find that "labor" cost is a small piece of the pie, not what corporate leaders would have you believe. Many union contracted companies have made numerous changes in healthcare and retirement programs in the recent past, all to the benefit of the company. Who do you blame for the rising cost of healthcare ?......doctors, insurance companies, non paying illegal immigrants, welfare recipients, or attornies for all the bogus healthcare lawsuits(not that all are bogus).........many choices, or maybe all of the above.
Now let's see $2 an hour for healthcare and retirement savings = $80 a week in a 40 hour week =approx $320 a month, I don't think that even covers healthcare for a family of 2 or more. Now really, if retirement savings were left up to the indivdual how many of you could really save it and not touch it for 30 years or more ?.....Think long and hard on this one.....for those of you too young to know this, life throws a lot of sh!t at you, especially if like most of us, you have kids !
Now as for unions, not everyone needs a union, I don't personally need a union, I have worked on both sides of that fence. I do however gladly pay my union dues and take an active part. Unions, in some cases, have themselves become like corporations and have questionable leaders. This does not make all union workers corrupt or greedy. For the most part we just want good pay for good work, or a decent living, not looking to become millionares. On that note, we will not make in a lifetime what a CEO makes in a year !
As for those of you who have attended college, what gives you the right to think that you are "worth" more than me ? Is it the student loan that you got yourself into? Maybe you should have had to work your way through college, like we did. Is it your overwhelming knowlege or vast experience ?
I'm sorry but I believe that my 30 years with the same employer and 20 years at my present position(on the job experience) trumps your 4 to 8 years of school ! When you add this experience to your schooling then you DESERVE a higher wage indeed.
As for labels, please don't label me as a conservitive, liberal, democrat, republican, black, white, german, african, polish, etc, etc.....
label me AMERICAN ! As for what I think or believe, call me a free thinking radical, after all that is who formed this great nation, by free thinkers, for free thinkers, of free thinkers !
As for Pikeslayer, don't fool yourself into believing that you know what I think or believe. Do not for one second pretend to know me, if you really knew me, you might be suprised, we could even be friends, I do have very good friends that are Engineers !
However, I am very impressed that you seem to believe that you are the ONLY ONE that has anything constructive to add to this thread, I see this by how you disagree with anyone here that doesn't see things your way.

Please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors as spellcheck and grammer check were not used .

As for Pikeslayer, don't fool yourself into believing that you know what I think or believe. Do not for one second pretend to know me, if you really knew me, you might be suprised, we could even be friends, I do have very good friends that are Engineers !

I'm sure we could be friends. I have riding buddy who is opposite on almost every political position I take.

However, I am very impressed that you seem to believe that you are the ONLY ONE that has anything constructive to add to this thread, I see this by how you disagree with anyone here that doesn't see things your way.

Actually, I think there are a bunch of people in here making good points. Of course I'm going to disagree with people who "don't see things my way". Not sure what you're getting at. Typically I only get bent outta shape when Americans begin to take a socialist viewpoint. If you want to push my buttons start talking about how we should tax the rich, or start bit(hing that someone else makes more and it's not fair. The best one is to tell me how we need some government run program to solve our problems, there's a whole bunch of those; welfare, social security, government run health care, subsides for farmers, bailouts, the list goes on and on.

 

[Pikeslayer]

A couple of responses to some of the comments
1. The Union workers are not given a pension / health care, anyone who know anything about this issues knows that pension, health care and all other benefits were established and based on a dollar amount - instead of paying it in wages directly to the employee is is applied to the cost of benefits
2. Almost every union has entered into competitive agreement (contracts with give backs) with the large corporation - There are several different wage and benefit plans within the Automotive Industry - But there are no such agreements in place with the Management employees - None of them have agreed to wage cuts to keep their jobs - the Union workers have. Efforts to save the business has begin and end within the hourly workforce. this is true at other large corporation such as GE
3. Many of these "Small Business" would not exist if it were not for work from the Auto industry - especially the Machine and Fab shops - Saving the Auto industry will save the behinds of these shops also
4. The claim that union have no place today because company pay a living wage - It is only because the Unions still exist - without them Companies would have no reason to share (fairly) the pie with the workforce
5. The argument that Companies paid the workers because they were afraid of a strike is BS - Any company is in a better position to handle a strike than most workers today - most (workers) are just a few weeks (without a pay check) from being totally screwed
6. 2.00 MORE AN HOUR TO INVEST AND PAY FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH CARE - NOW THIS IS REALLY A STATEMENT THAT HAS NO MERIT - After paying for your health care - you will have no money left to invest / save. By the way how are your investments doing?
7. The CEO and Upper Management individual have a CONTRACT with BENEFIT and SECURITY Clauses, so why are they so hell bent on not wanting the worker on the floor to have a CONTRACT with the same protection. We are all working people. Different Skill levels and talents which determines the level of compensation but in the end everyone is just a worker

Ok I'm done for now - Tell me what do you think now

Respect
UD

6. 2.00 MORE AN HOUR TO INVEST AND PAY FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH CARE - NOW THIS IS REALLY A STATEMENT THAT HAS NO MERIT - After paying for your health care - you will have no money left to invest / save. By the way how are your investments doing?

You have misquoted me. I never mentioned health care. My investments are down this year. I figured you'd know that. The 10 prior years were awesome. So all in all I'm very happy with progress thus far.

 

[Pikeslayer]

I know the flame thrower will come out but what the heck.

If the Big Three or even any one of them go bankrupt maybe the manufacturing companies that support them will begin to produce other products. Maybe products that will sale. Products that are equal to or better than what is produced elsewhere and maybe even at a cost that is competetive. Maybe it's time to turn off the life support and let this patient go.
Maxx

wow...that is a great idea...they could just start making sh!t nobody ever thought to make and sell it....

if they thought of that at the textile mills they wouldnt have had to close down...

Do you guys think if the big 3 close everybody will quit buying cars and all the fab shops will be outta work? The other manufacturers will pick up the slack. The same amount of cars will be sold. The fab shops will do the same thing. The only thing different would be who gets the invoice from the fab shop. Instead of GM getting billed, Toyota would get billed.

 

[Pikeslayer]

Pikeslayer,
While I don't think it will be as easy as you make it sound, yes-many will just continue as usual. Those that are flexible, efficient and cost effective.

I'd like to see one really good American car maker come out of this. One that CAN compete on an international level. It will be a massive change to be sure. The old ways of doing things need to be tossed. Shoring up the current companies is throwing good money after bad.
Maxx

I agree.

I think we should start by shutting down one of the big 3. This would help the other 2 out in sales. The shops that supported the one closed would be hungry for work, so they will lower their prices, which eventually would lower the cost to produce the vehicle. If we could reduce the power of the union at the same time, we would have it made.

 

[Pikeslayer]

JEZUZ...do you think with that amny people out of work the economy would support automobile sales at all?....

this isnt about the big three building cars for people to drive...this is about the number of people who would be put out of work and the economic slide that would acompany it...no matter what industry you work in you would be affected negatively by it and your buying power would be diminished also...

is anybody paying attention to whats going on right now? i'm not sure how many of you are unaffected by the current economy (and i'm not talking about your 401k-itll come back...maybe) because you have built in raises or what you think is job security but if the number of additional people who could lose their jobs do...whatever you do for a living isnt going to survive because there isnt going to be anyone who can afford to purchase your goods and services...

this isnt a "let the kid go to jail for a night, itll do him good" scenario...this is a potential threat to the global economy...deeper than we are seeing already...the equivalent of the kid in jail getting gang raped and killing himself (oops...maybe it wasnt a good idea after all...lesson learned)

you think 10s of thousands of people going on unemployment isnt going to affect you? where do you think the money comes from to pay them and retrain them? do you think theyll be buying your goods and services while they are collecting a small pecentage of what they used to earn? do you think your possessions will be worth as much as they were when the market is flooded with used cars, boats, motorcycles and homes people cant afford to live in anymore?

what you are seeing now is a small piece of what could happen if the largest businesses in the usa are allowed to fail because we think they need to learn a lesson...they are learning a lesson right now...make a change or die...that goes from the top to the bottom...the ceo who thinks hes worth 14.4 million a year to the guy who sweeps a floor for a living who thinks he should get a fat retirement or hes gonna put the company hes working for out of business by striking (how many are saying "we really showed them" now?)....there are a lot of people who need to think about whats valuable to them right now...including yourselves...

if you dont have an idea of what kind of affect this has on your life do some homework before you decide how many other peoples lives should be affected because youre sick of hearing about how much other people get paid...and even that information has been diluted and reported incorrectly...be careful what you believe...because you might get your wish and its liable to bite you in the a$$....

Like i said before. People will always buy cars. There will always be companies in this country making them. I don't care if it's GM or Toyota. If GM goes out somebody else will pick up their slack. And guess what, that someone will have to hire people to do it.

I'm well aware of the trickle down it will have. Gotta draw the line some where. I'm sick of bailouts!

 

[Pikeslayer]

Ya'll talk about how if they "American Auto makers" made a competitive product......think about the ignorance of your statment. None of the countries that are flooding this country with their "tariff free" products have the EPA or any of the other regulatory agencies breathing down there backs. Nor do they have the same standard of living we enjoy. They are just emerging ...about a 100 years in our past! You talk about how these shops that subcontract to the Big 3 will just make it for someone else....Wrong!
The imports will make it over seas.....12 hours a day....$25.00 a month...2.days off a month...thats what these people make over in the china! And just ship it to u dumb asses that think Global Economy is a great thing! Our manufacturing base is the basis for the Sovereignty and Might of this Great Country! With out it we are on our way to 3rd world country status!
Ohh and your Collage edycation will help to get that job at Mc Donalds...for sure!

Start learning your new bosses language "Chinese" and start getting use to those 12 hour days...while you continue to buy that import garbage!
You all don't have a CLUE!

They don't need bailouts...just a equal playing field!

Ya'll talk about how if they "American Auto makers" made a competitive product......think about the ignorance of your statment.
I don't recall many comments in this thread regarding competitive products. I personally think the big 3 do an ok job as far as competitive products go.
None of the countries that are flooding this country with their "tariff free" products have the EPA or any of the other regulatory agencies breathing down there backs.
I'm pretty sure most cars sold in the U.S. are made in the US. I don't think we are "flooded" with imports. Toyota, Honda, BMW, and I think VW all have manufacturing plants in the U.S. You're wrong on the EPA point. At least product side, all cars sold in the US must meet EPA regs. The plant that produces them, if not in the US doesn't have to conform to EPA.
You talk about how these shops that subcontract to the Big 3 will just make it for someone else....Wrong!
The imports will make it over seas.....12 hours a day....$25.00 a month...2.days off a month...thats what these people make over in the china! And just ship it to u dumb asses that think Global Economy is a great thing!
I can tell you from personal experience Honda has many U.S. based suppliers, and my company supplies Toyota right now. Global economy has been here since spices were all the rage. Good or bad it is here to stay. There will always be someone somewhere willing to work for less than someone else. Get used to it, adapt. Easy with the "dumb asses" comment.
Ohh and your Collage edycation will help to get that job at Mc Donalds...for sure!
From this statement I gather you either don't think a college education has value, or you don't like college educated people. I would hope for your children's sake you don't express these views to them.
Start learning your new bosses language "Chinese" and start getting use to those 12 hour days...while you continue to buy that import garbage!
You all don't have a CLUE!

Give me an example of import garbage. I don't know much about Kia, but I think they were the first to offer a 100,000 mile warranty. How are they pulling that off if they are making garbage? Maybe you need to open your eyes. There are companies all over this world making great cars. If you and the big 3 want people to buy their products, make the decision easy for people

 

[Pikeslayer]

Wow!
Some great information there.
1st of all there are to my way of thinking three major culprits in this current economic downturn. Wallstreet and their unholy minions (acorn included), the GOVERNMENT who for some reason believed that everyone, regardless of condition belonged in the middle class and should have a house they couldn't afford, and the Union stragglehold. And yes as a former Teamster, it's hard for me to say that.
Evodog, yes my friend I do get it. The Automakers are in a bad position and have been. They have been forced to innact standards by Congress that they couldn't afford, which along with their Union agreements resulted in a product that is overpriced compaired to what is I'm afraid is superior foriegn products. I'd love to go down to the lot TODAY and trade my 2005 Tacoma in on a new Dodge Truck. Love to. Problem is I KNOW FOR ABSOLUTELY SURE that my Toyota will run, relatively trouble free for another 200 thousand miles. I know this because my 91 Four Runner (265,000 miles and got 3500.00 on trade) did and my little Toy truck before it did. The Dodge? 7/70????? Drive train only? Right. Drive a GM, Ford or Dodge truck onto the lot with 265,000 miles on it and lets see what kind of trade in you get. Oh, sorry. I mean tow in a GM, Ford or Dodge truck with 265,000 miles. To try to stay competitive with all the other factors (Gov't, Union, Competition) the Big three have had to try and off set price with crappy production and inferior parts. Have you seen the wire strands in a GM product? The thinist wire possible. It lightens the load, cuts the costs and FAILS, shorts or burns up your computer after 80,000 miles.

OK, back on track. What to do now? Continue to support failure? I know lets raise the minimum wage another $2.00 and drive employers to lay off another 1 or 2%. It's a crap sandwhich for sure, hope were all hungry!

Maxx

Great insight Maxxdaddy! I especially like this one:

the GOVERNMENT who for some reason believed that everyone, regardless of condition belonged in the middle class and should have a house they couldn't afford

I agree. I started another thread asking the question why congress has time to investigate steroids, but for some reason thinks investigating the cause for the housing bubble isn't worthwhile. I know what the cause is, democratic philosophy, I just wish everyone else knew.