[scottq60]

Yeah...and why do they need to COME BACK with a plan??? Why didn't they bring a plan the first time. No wonder they're failin'!!!!

Is that just Congress' way of trying to humble the big 3's CEO's???? Then when they come back they're gonna act like they gotta good plan and Congress'll give 'em the 25+ billion.

Then once they have the big check in hand...they'll get back on their private jets, moon DC as they lift off from Reagan National...then head back home to business as usual...sickening....

 

[scottq60]

So at what point do the bailouts stop? Does the government end up owning everything? Oh, that's right...they already do. It's a little thing called "right of imminent domain" or something like that.

I LOVE this country....no one should doubt that. I gave 20 years of my life defending her...and I would do it all over again - but this whole mess is starting to get just a little worrisome...

 

[scottq60]

Not sayin' I agree with everything unions do...but let me ask you...are you against workers being able to retire and have a pension and health benefits? Do you believe we should all work until we're too old or sick to work any more then just become homeless bums? Social security (to my knowledge) wasn't enacted as a retirement/pension program...though it's all that many "retired" folk have to survive on nowadays. Poor planning on their part? Maybe...

I gave 20 years of my life in defense of this great country, and because of that, I receive a modest pension and health care benefits...though they're not "free healthcare for life" as I was promised when I enlisted in the Air Force 28 years ago. I consider myself VERY fortunate to have the benefits I receive. My taxes (yes I pay taxes too) and the taxes of millions of working Americans pay for those benefits...but one day Congress could decide I don't deserve them anymore. What would I do then? Live on social security I guess...and what's left of my 401k...until social security is eliminated or runs out of money...whichever comes first.

When those automotive industry workers started their careers, they were told (like me when I joined the Air Force) about certain benefits that they would have upon retirement. My uncle David retired after several years at Fisher Body (Norwood, Ohio).A few of my relatives retired from the "big 3". Since he retired (back in the 80's), he has watched his retirement benefits shrink steadily.

It's easy for people in different circumstances (don't know yours and I'm not singling you out) to piss/moan about pensions and health-care adding $thousands to the price of a new car. Would you rather we (all Americans) have a "one-size-fits-all" standard of living where everyone is equally poor and lacking health-care and other things they've worked hard for many years to achieve?

Seems when everything's booming and everyone's (for the most part) enjoying a modest level of prosperity...that none of these things are that big of a deal...but now that we're in a financial/economic crisis...these things start to be examined with a lot more scrutiny.

Just sayin' :sofa:

 

[scottq60]

"are you against workers being able to retire and have a pension and health benefits? "

I would love for all workers to be able to retire. Just not on any one elses back, that is socialism.

So there should be no military pensions? no social security? So any money that goes from the sale of a new car into the pension/healthcare program is just contributing to socialism??? I don't think so...everyone has a choice to NOT buy that car if they think they're supporting "socialism" by buying it. It's really no one's business that GM or the others worked out a plan with unions to allow the workers to be paid $$xx.xx per hour or have a pension and healthcare when they retire. ON that same note...those automakers made their bed....they need to sink or swim ON THEIR OWN...without your or my tax dollars financing their bad decisions. Unfortunately, if that happens (bankruptcy or outright failure)...it will have a SERIOUS ripple affect on an already troubled economy.

Those companies are no different from our government in that those in power make sure they're taken care of even at the expense of everyone else. Social Security wouldn't be running out of money if Congress would leave it alone and quit borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. The retired autoworkers' pensions would be secure if those in charge kept their promises instead of making sure they get their own millions first.

But that's the ugly side of humanity...it's all about ME, ME, ME... and things are gonna get MUCH uglier as this economic downturn continues...

My company promises me a pension, am I depending on it? Heck no.

I'm guessing you'll sure be disappointed or pissed if your company goes down the tubes and takes your pension with it.

What ever happened to the days of saving for your future? One of my buddies makes about half of what I do. He drives a new Ford truck, and I drive a 1997 Chevy 1/2 ton. 20 years from now when we are both retired does he have the right to bltch about how much he doesn't have?

Everyone SHOULD save for their future. Spending 20 years in the military was an investment in my future...that investment should not be threatened by anyone. It was promised to me and all the other veterans who served the time to earn it. Just like the auto workers...and your pension - what is promised should be upheld at ALL costs. Nope...he has no right to bitch...you are doin' what you need to do (driving a 1/2 ton Chevy that's a year newer than my GMC) to prepare for your future.

 

[scottq60]

Somebody help me out here. I'm a 30 year Teamster and I have the back, neck and joint problems that come from hard physical work. When I started 30 years ago I knew that there was no promise that my employement would last for a career. By being union I could count on a decent wage, decent health benifits and a pension. I have not lived like a king but been able to raise 2 kids putting a simple roof over their heads and giving them the experiance of being in scouts, ball, etc. However over the years as corporate america shipped jobs out of country and our goverment has lost money by being inefficent I have watched the middle class decline. For years when unions where strong the middle class grew. If you were not union the companies gave you a decent wage and benifits to keep the union out. And for that I'm called a socialist. Let me tell you what a socialist is. A American CEO who is paid over 500 times the CEO of other countries, who has health benifits that heads of goverments have. A stock plan (retirement plan) that will let him travel the world several times over in his old age and if he screws up at his job he gets millions to walk away. Anybody who thinks american workers in this day and age can be paid $20 with no pension instead of $22 and a pension that should be as protected as the CEO's is either out of touch with financial reality or is still too young to be thinking about it (nothing personnel but I'm 58 and looking at retirement in 4 more years or I was).

I'm with ya...seems to me that (at least some) folks who are against unions/pensions/healthcare plans...may just be a bit envious of those who have EARNED them....

I thought it curious that Pikeslayer mentioned "if you see combat" as a worthwhile reason for getting a pension. I guess my 20 years of service are nullified because I only maintained the nuclear arsenal that WON the cold war with Russia. I wasn't dodgin' bullets, so I'm not worthy of my pension/healthcare...even though I volunteered to go to the desert back in '91. Dammit!!! I knew I should've insisted they let me go...:hystria:

 

[scottq60]

Why should every US born citizen over the age of 21 be GIVEN anything???
That's the problem with a HUGE portion of the population...a sense of entitlement...

 

[scottq60]

...Its not an entitalment it is a stimulas to the people instead of corrupt CEOs.

Where I come from, we call it WELFARE....:spank:

Your "stimulus" would be on the backs of our children and grandchildren...

 

[scottq60]

...
As for those of you who have attended college, what gives you the right to think that you are "worth" more than me ? Is it the student loan that you got yourself into? Maybe you should have had to work your way through college, like we did. Is it your overwhelming knowlege or vast experience ?
....

I'm sorry but I believe that my 30 years with the same employer and 20 years at my present position(on the job experience) trumps your 4 to 8 years of school ! When you add this experience to your schooling then you DESERVE a higher wage indeed.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want...obviously. Your 30 years...blah, blah, blah...only trumps the education if the job you do doesn't require one (a formal education). One's education only trumps your experience if the position requires it...(an education).

The fact is...education is quite valuable, especially the 30 year education you obtained...whether or not you have a diploma to show for it. I doubt very seriously that any college graduate has been hired to do the same job you've done for 30 years and got more pay than you to perform that job because they possess a college degree.

One thing my father always stressed..."education is something no one can ever take away from you."

BTW, I didn't NEED to use spelling checker or grammar checker...I learned those basic skills in school. :woohoo:

 

[scottq60]

Scott, take a chill pill ! I in no way am knocking an education ! I am also not knocking anyone willing to pursue one. For what it's worth, I started college during my senior year in high school.
My only point was that education DOES NOT mean value !

Just keep living and continue the education

I respectfully disagree...an education can add $10k or more to one's annual salary...if that's not valuable, I'm not sure what is...

 

[scottq60]

we'd have a ball....bet on it...as long as we didnt talk about american vs foreign vehicle reliability....

ride safe..

I've got about 30 years worth of experience with Fords...most of them I bought new or just lightly (less than 20k miles) used.

I'll just say that my experience with my 98 Ranger 4x4 that I bought brand new and my wife's 02 Eddie Bauer Explorer...bought w/14k miles on it were awful enough that I'd NEVER buy another Ford...except for maybe a Mustang. While Mustangs aren't perfect either, I like them enough to tolerate a bit of warranty maintenance occasionally - my wife's 06 GT vert has already been back a few times and has a whopping 13k miles on it. Had the battery replaced and it's been back for at least a couple recalls.

I will say that our 99 Taurus SE wagon was probably the BEST new vehicle we've ever bought...sold it with 146k miles on it with a minimum of return trips to the dealership...its worst problem was warping front brake rotors every 20-30k miles...

I'm driving my 96 GMC Sierra that I bought from my father a couple years ago and I must say it is a QUALITY vehicle...very tight and solid for a 13 year old. My toy (03 Z06) hasn't given me a second's problem in the 15 months I've owned it, of course the first owner paid $50k+ for it...that chunk of change SHOULD buy a pretty dependable vehicle!

 

[scottq60]

You must not've seen the number of service jobs that have been lost in the last couple months...don't remember the exact number but here's what foxbusiness.com reported for November:

"Nearly all sectors lost jobs during the November period, the Labor Department said. Construction jobs fell by 82,000 during the month, while service sector jobs dropped by 370,000 jobs. The professional and business service sector lost 136,000 jobs, while manufacturing firms shed 85,000 jobs last month as well."

I'm not for bailing out the big 3 either, at least not for their sake, but for the sake of the millions of jobs that will be lost if they are allowed to go away.

 

[scottq60]

WOW!!! Thanks for sharing that! :clap:

 

[scottq60]

tomv,

I appreciate all the good info and you've almost convinced me to give Ford another chance the next time we buy a new vehicle, then I think back to the disappointing, hateful experiences I've had with Ford service...and the arrogant attitudes we've had to deal with during those experiences. My 98 Ranger was in the shop 52 days (19 visits) in the first 3 years of ownership. At least two of those times, I didn't get home with the vehicle (once - not even off their lot) before the complaint resurfaced. I compiled alll the work orders and filed a complaint with Ford's arbitration board in an attempt to get them to buy the vehicle back. They barely took the time to review my documentation before replying with, "sorry...can't help you".

Now...with that said...am I suggesting that Toyota, Honda, Lexus, etc. would stand behind their products any better? Nope...but I figure it's time to give them a chance. For years, all we heard was "Ford...Quality is Job 1!" Gotta tell you...at the time that was their slogan, it was LAUGHABLE! WHY did the American manufacturers have to wait to be "dethroned" before they really started thinking about building a QUALITY product??? I've spent tens of thousands of dollars on new and used Fords, GM's and one Dodge Grand Caravan. I currently drive an 03 Z06 (bought used) and my Dad's "Ol' Blue"...a 96 GMC Sierra 4x4 I bought from him 2 years ago wth 65k miles on it. I'm happy with both of them...maybe I should've been buyin' new GM products all those years instead of Fords.

Only time will tell how all this shakes out, but I've supported American auto manufacturers (namely FORD) for decades and my days of supporting Ford as a consumer are pretty much over.

I still like Mustangs - bought my wife an 06 GT convertible in May 06 and we're pretty happy with it, even though it needed a new battery this year and has been back for at least a couple recalls/TSB's.

 

[scottq60]

Seems to be like a lot of people just don't get it..standing on principle and saying "let em go down...they deserve it". The problem is...the rest of America will suffer as well if it happens. The whole national economy is intertwined with the auto industry and if the auto industry collapses, we'll ALL pay a huge price for it...

 

[scottq60]

We all understand that, but our point is ARE THEY GONNA DO RIGHT WITH THE MONEY? If we give them the money and they swendle it all, and they still go BANKRUPT that means we'll end up paying for it twice... That's all we are saying, if we give em' the money and they do right then GREAT, but will they?

That's great but you say it like we have some sort of option to determine if they'll succeed or fail..it's out of our hands. I don't think it does much good to worry about it one way or the other. It is what it is....that whole "K sarah sarah" thing...

 

[scottq60]

The thing is it is NOT in OUR laps...we have NO say in it whatsoever...can't remember the last time I was able to pick up the phone, call congress and FORCE them to vote one way or the other because I said so...

I don't like the situation either..but no use to stewin' over it...kinda a waste of energy really. If I thought I could personally do something about it, I'd be ALL over it...but other than voting when we get the opportunity, the rest is a done deal.

 

[scottq60]

I know we're gonna pay for it...and you're right...folks come on here to express views. I wasn't trying to squelch that...guess I just need to tune out of this thread...I really have nothing to offer and I'm certainly sick of beatin' this horse.

 

[scottq60]

I'm guessing it's up because the White House agreed to take the 14 billion out of the 700 billion set aside for Wall St.

 

[scottq60]

@gree: BlueGlide05 - You covered it right there.."to a T".....:clap: