I have a 2001 heritage softail classic that is unmolested as far as engine and exhausts go but I find myself wanting more of that Harley growl and at the same time would like to get some performance increase as well. A local dealer suggested a stage 1 kit and removing the baffles from the stock mufflers as a start. My bike is EFI. Any suggestions out there? TIA
exhaust recommendations
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Stage 1 is the way to go for what you want, but drilling out the baffles on a Delphi bike is NOT a good idea. Cheap slip-ons like Cycle Shacks work very well. A couple hundred extra but you will be much happier with the sound and the performance.
On most Delphi bikes the system will compensate for slip-ons only, so if money is the overwhelming consideration you will probably be better off just with slip-ons. You will have sound and a very moderate performance increase, and you can get the intake kit and reflash later to get another bit of power.
On most Delphi bikes the system will compensate for slip-ons only, so if money is the overwhelming consideration you will probably be better off just with slip-ons. You will have sound and a very moderate performance increase, and you can get the intake kit and reflash later to get another bit of power.
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Bub:
I have read the almost thousands of comments and recommendations for harley exhaust systems....Rhinehart, V&H, Cycle Shack, Thunder Header, Sampson...you get the idea. Everyone that has laid down the cash want to believe that they bought the "best". I'm not really sure why harley wanted to put a cross-over pipe on their bikes, but they did. The guys who seem to be real techies talk about the best way is a two-into-one configuration. Thats great, but I'm not racing....I'm into looking good. I bought an Ultra because it looks good and I want it to sound good. Some say that the true duals are a very good way to go. This method exposes weaknesses by lessening the structure of the left side, way too weak.
Now, here's what I did. Quite a few people suggest Rush, yea Rush. Rush offers good looking pipes, slip-ons that maintain the cross-over that the moco seems to like. They are not too expensive (ie. Rhinehart) and they offer a wide selection of baffles....from relatively quiet to pretty durn loud. I purchased the set with 1.75" baffle for the left side and a 2" baffle for the right. The 1.75" left side baffle creates just the slightest amount of unbalance that forces some rear cylinder exhaust gasses through the right pipe. The sound is great. My wife says its too loud, thats the way I know its just right.
I ran it some last night. If you crank it, the pipes respond. When riding at highway speeds, say 70-80 mph, it really isn't too loud.
Well thats my 2 cents worth.
Keep 'em straight up there,
Shriner Jim
I have read the almost thousands of comments and recommendations for harley exhaust systems....Rhinehart, V&H, Cycle Shack, Thunder Header, Sampson...you get the idea. Everyone that has laid down the cash want to believe that they bought the "best". I'm not really sure why harley wanted to put a cross-over pipe on their bikes, but they did. The guys who seem to be real techies talk about the best way is a two-into-one configuration. Thats great, but I'm not racing....I'm into looking good. I bought an Ultra because it looks good and I want it to sound good. Some say that the true duals are a very good way to go. This method exposes weaknesses by lessening the structure of the left side, way too weak.
Now, here's what I did. Quite a few people suggest Rush, yea Rush. Rush offers good looking pipes, slip-ons that maintain the cross-over that the moco seems to like. They are not too expensive (ie. Rhinehart) and they offer a wide selection of baffles....from relatively quiet to pretty durn loud. I purchased the set with 1.75" baffle for the left side and a 2" baffle for the right. The 1.75" left side baffle creates just the slightest amount of unbalance that forces some rear cylinder exhaust gasses through the right pipe. The sound is great. My wife says its too loud, thats the way I know its just right.
I ran it some last night. If you crank it, the pipes respond. When riding at highway speeds, say 70-80 mph, it really isn't too loud.
Well thats my 2 cents worth.
Keep 'em straight up there,
Shriner Jim
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14 Posts
What I Did
Like you, I had a box-stock Heritage Softail. Though mine is a 2005, it is in the same family as yours. Most of the accessories for our bikes fit the 2001 - 2005 models.
In an effort to keep expenses down plus the gratification of doing things for myself, I followed a DIY path.
Based on comments here and other boards regarding the relative tone and volume of various mufflers, I bought a pair of Harley "Torque" Screamin' Eagle mufflers, part number 80388-01. These are somewhere between the older very loud ones and the more recent just-like-stock SE's. They sound great at cruise and idle. A little rowdy when accelerating. The MoCo quit distributing them after 2005, but there are still some new-old-stock ones out there. Mine were brand new in the box at $165.00 + $30.00 shipping so $195.00 to my door from Rossmeyer's HD, via eBay.
Screamin' Eagle Stage One air cleaner kit was about $125.00, delivered.
The PowerCommander III USB from Fuel Moto with a map for my configuration was $281.95.
Another $15.00 for consumables like gaskets and the total is a little less than $617.00.
I strongly recommend new pipe gaskets, retaining rings, and interconnect tube gaskets. It's a tussle getting the old mufflers off the pipes so bite the bullet and pull the whole muffler-interconnect-head pipe assembly off of the machine. Replace the gaskets and assemble per the guidance in the maintenance manual. It will ensure the absence of leaks and make for a factory-like installation.
It runs great. I'm going to ride it like it is for awhile before deciding whether to have it dyno'ed.
FWIW
There are so many options that the number of combinations is almost limitless when it comes to pipes, air-cleaners, tuners, etc.
Like you, I had a box-stock Heritage Softail. Though mine is a 2005, it is in the same family as yours. Most of the accessories for our bikes fit the 2001 - 2005 models.
In an effort to keep expenses down plus the gratification of doing things for myself, I followed a DIY path.
Based on comments here and other boards regarding the relative tone and volume of various mufflers, I bought a pair of Harley "Torque" Screamin' Eagle mufflers, part number 80388-01. These are somewhere between the older very loud ones and the more recent just-like-stock SE's. They sound great at cruise and idle. A little rowdy when accelerating. The MoCo quit distributing them after 2005, but there are still some new-old-stock ones out there. Mine were brand new in the box at $165.00 + $30.00 shipping so $195.00 to my door from Rossmeyer's HD, via eBay.
Screamin' Eagle Stage One air cleaner kit was about $125.00, delivered.
The PowerCommander III USB from Fuel Moto with a map for my configuration was $281.95.
Another $15.00 for consumables like gaskets and the total is a little less than $617.00.
I strongly recommend new pipe gaskets, retaining rings, and interconnect tube gaskets. It's a tussle getting the old mufflers off the pipes so bite the bullet and pull the whole muffler-interconnect-head pipe assembly off of the machine. Replace the gaskets and assemble per the guidance in the maintenance manual. It will ensure the absence of leaks and make for a factory-like installation.
It runs great. I'm going to ride it like it is for awhile before deciding whether to have it dyno'ed.
FWIW
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17 Posts
i Have a 06 Night train with a stage one kit and v & h shortshots half baffles efi and i am lucky to get 25 miles to the gallon any ideas???
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2006 Is Another Generation
I think the 2006 model year is when they added oxygen (O2) sensors to the Twin Cam motors. That puts a different spin on things. You don't say if you have a tuner like a SERT or Thunder Max. I think the Thunder Max is a self-adjusting tuner that works with the O2 sensors.
The DynoJet Power Commander web site says that Harley made a change to their injectors in February of 2006 that will cause the motor to run richer if it has a pre-existing Power Commander map installed. Could affect other tuners too, I expect.
With the changes you have made you probably should have some kind of EFI modification too. The dealer can download a new map for your existing stock H-D ECM module. They might not be able to do it if your O2 sensors are unhooked, though. Otherwise a tuner box like the PCIII, or Fuelpak, or Thunder Max may help. They're all different and one may be better suited to your configuration than the others.
Of course the easy way is to take your bike to a shop, (H-D dealer or indy), that has a dyno and they will fix you up. Be advised that the quality of work done by these dyno-equipped shops varies widely. So post a query here and other boards soliciting input on the shops in your area.
Good luck.
Hey JD,
I think the 2006 model year is when they added oxygen (O2) sensors to the Twin Cam motors. That puts a different spin on things. You don't say if you have a tuner like a SERT or Thunder Max. I think the Thunder Max is a self-adjusting tuner that works with the O2 sensors.
The DynoJet Power Commander web site says that Harley made a change to their injectors in February of 2006 that will cause the motor to run richer if it has a pre-existing Power Commander map installed. Could affect other tuners too, I expect.
With the changes you have made you probably should have some kind of EFI modification too. The dealer can download a new map for your existing stock H-D ECM module. They might not be able to do it if your O2 sensors are unhooked, though. Otherwise a tuner box like the PCIII, or Fuelpak, or Thunder Max may help. They're all different and one may be better suited to your configuration than the others.
Of course the easy way is to take your bike to a shop, (H-D dealer or indy), that has a dyno and they will fix you up. Be advised that the quality of work done by these dyno-equipped shops varies widely. So post a query here and other boards soliciting input on the shops in your area.
Good luck.
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96 Posts
Not all '06 engines had the O2 sensors. My Heritage does not. I think they introduced them on the dyna's or night trains that year and went to all twin cam motors in '07 along with the 96 c.i. and the 6-speed tranny. As for the injectors, there were issues with stalling/ stuttering with the 8 degree injectors installed on some bikes. You could take your bike in and IIRC, Harley would replace them with the 25 degree injectors under warranty. Not trying to step on any toes, jmho. If your only getting 25mpg, maybe your running too rich. Get a good fuel mgt. device (PCIII,SERT) an have it dyno'd by a professional tuner to get the most out of it. Good Luck, Ride Safe.
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17 Posts
Thanks for the info. my 06 did not come with o2 sensors. or should i say my shortshots did not. it had a pwr commander but when i remapped for my short shots and stage 1 kit at on my computer at home my mileage got worse . so i removed it. my local harley will not tell me what that injector upgrade was for only told me it would make my mileage worse ????Can i call harley themselves and find out with my vin the info i need ??? i get to 2 gallons left in my tank and my low gas light with only 60 miles showing on my odometer.
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17 Posts
the bike was used so there is no telling what map etc was on the pwr cmdr . when my local dealer put the stage 1 they remapped it without knowing the pwr cmdr was hooked up. getting info is like pulling teeth. they are so busy. hell my car is getting better mileage .
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17 Posts
is there an official notice or recall etc i can look up or printout so maybe my local will be a little more helpful and i know the right symptoms etc . i cannot afford to just throw money at it. i am in angleton texas 45 miles south of houston. what do tuners cost up there??
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Dyno runs around here are charged by the hour. Seems as if most people agree that you need about 3 hours on the dyno. You're probably looking at close to $200.
Do you have the right map for your PC? What's your gas mileage? And how the hell did the dealer not know there was a PC already hooked up?
Do you have the right map for your PC? What's your gas mileage? And how the hell did the dealer not know there was a PC already hooked up?
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14 Posts
Here's the note on the DynoJet Power Commander webpage. It says to refer to bulletin number M-1185.
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On or around February 13, 2006 Harley Davidson altered the production line of Big Twins with updated fuel injectors and an ECM upgrade. This update will affect the fuel mapping of the stock bike and also of the Power Commander maps developed up to May 2006.
These maps include:
* Up to M805-221 for part #805-511
* Up to M807-236 for part #807-511
* Up to M811-005 for part #811-511
If you have the update performed and are using a map previous to this date you may find that your bike runs slightly rich. An easy adjustment is to use the buttons on the faceplate of the Power Commander. Lean the midrange button by 2 light bars and the high range button by 1 light bar.
All maps developed after May 2006 will have the update performed.
Please refer to your local Harley Davidson dealer for more information on bulletin M-1185.
******************************************
Since the dealer remapped your stock ECM a different PCIII map would be needed anyway. Sounds like if you can identify the proper map for your PCIII and load it things should get better. The problems are identifying the correct map and verifying that it is behaving as it should.
As has been suggested, a dyno run is going to be the best way to solve this.
Your location says Angleton - is that the one between Houston and Freeport? If so there should be a bunch of dyno shops in the Houston area.
Good luck!
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17 Posts
it came in on a wednesday i looked at that day ran my finances got it thursday afternoon . they put on a stage 1 kit and remapped it for free because the salesman repeatedly had told me it had stage 1 but it did not. i guess they never took off the seat???i also had them put a 10,000 mile service on it. i am getting 25 mpg . wtf???shortshots have baffles in. the map i have is for stage 1 with s shots no baffles efi. did in my garage etc moved my computer. etc
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17 Posts
Yes it is in between freeport and houston. so there is no way for me to get the local to honor this warranty. can i go direct to harley etc i wonder ?? i asked about this and was told it was an issue of bike cutting out when turning etc no mention of upgraded ecm . can i just look at injectors and ecm and tell if they have been changed out.???
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PCIII Map Number M805-025?
However, you do have a PCIII and DynoJet offers free maps, among which you might be able to find one that will work well with your configuration. I found these on their website.
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M805-010 Vance & Hines Shortshots with stock ECU and Screamin Eagle air filter 28 KB
M805-011 Vance & Hines Shortshots (without baffles) with stock ECU and Screamin Eagle air filter 29 KB
M805-025 Vance & Hines Shortshots, Stage 1 ECU and Screamin Eagle air filter 29 KB
M805-026 Vance & Hines Shortshots (without baffles), Stage 1 ECU and Screamin Eagle air filter 29 KB
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Looks like you have the choice of baffles or no-baffles and re-mapped or not re-mapped ECU. If I understand correctly, you have baffles and a re-mapped ECU. That would suggest PCIII map number M805-025. You might try that one.
Don't know what to tell you about the Harley dealer. Apparently they did not know about the PCIII but they should have if they were putting on Stage I stuff and remapping the ECU.
It might be worth a shot to go back and ask them to put the bike in the configuration they should have after they put on the Stage I stuff and sending you out the door in the first place. Some of them get their shorts in a bunch over having a third party tuner (PCIII in this case) installed and say that it voids any kind of warranty that may have been in effect. While they may be on firm legal ground, that does not do much for customer satisfaction in this case.
They should have known what they were doing when adding the Stage I stuff and either taken the PCIII into account or unhooked the PCIII and installed the proper MoCo ECU map for the configuration they were creating for you.
If they don't fix this and you don't feel like going to war with them, then about the only thing left to do is reconnect your PCIII and go get a dyno tune. Others may have fought this battle and have better advice for you.
Good luck!
I don't know how to tell the difference between injectors and ECU maps by looking at them.
However, you do have a PCIII and DynoJet offers free maps, among which you might be able to find one that will work well with your configuration. I found these on their website.
*********************************
M805-010 Vance & Hines Shortshots with stock ECU and Screamin Eagle air filter 28 KB
M805-011 Vance & Hines Shortshots (without baffles) with stock ECU and Screamin Eagle air filter 29 KB
M805-025 Vance & Hines Shortshots, Stage 1 ECU and Screamin Eagle air filter 29 KB
M805-026 Vance & Hines Shortshots (without baffles), Stage 1 ECU and Screamin Eagle air filter 29 KB
*****************************************
Looks like you have the choice of baffles or no-baffles and re-mapped or not re-mapped ECU. If I understand correctly, you have baffles and a re-mapped ECU. That would suggest PCIII map number M805-025. You might try that one.
Don't know what to tell you about the Harley dealer. Apparently they did not know about the PCIII but they should have if they were putting on Stage I stuff and remapping the ECU.
It might be worth a shot to go back and ask them to put the bike in the configuration they should have after they put on the Stage I stuff and sending you out the door in the first place. Some of them get their shorts in a bunch over having a third party tuner (PCIII in this case) installed and say that it voids any kind of warranty that may have been in effect. While they may be on firm legal ground, that does not do much for customer satisfaction in this case.
They should have known what they were doing when adding the Stage I stuff and either taken the PCIII into account or unhooked the PCIII and installed the proper MoCo ECU map for the configuration they were creating for you.
If they don't fix this and you don't feel like going to war with them, then about the only thing left to do is reconnect your PCIII and go get a dyno tune. Others may have fought this battle and have better advice for you.
Good luck!
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