V-Twin Forum banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
401 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok here is my question. With all the epa talk about changing your bike from stock to modified and dealers not wanting to do anything because of the fines, what is going to happen to us when we need service and the mods have been done?

My other question is this. I just bought a 06 Ultra Classic and the stage 2 upgrade with the 95inch, pistons,203 cams, pushrods, SE air cleaner and pipes. I am scheduled to visit the dealer next week to have a SERT installed and dyno'd. Is this going to be a waste of money?? The bike has the new 25 degree injectors installed and runs great. Should I just leave it alone?

If the EPA passes and my bike needs service will the dealer work on it or put it back to stock? Will we be grandfathered in since it was done before the new law just like old cars?

Biggest question is should i save the cash which is going to be a total out the door of $625 dyno and sert combined.

Very confused and concerned
Thank you
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
They can pass all the laws they want. Someone has to enforce those laws. IMO, the new laws, if they pass, will be meaningless. Why? Because the states are all broke. The Fed Gov't is giving less money to them, besides the fact that almost every agency that doesn't shoot or blow things up from the air is getting it's budget slashed. Imagine this scenario:

a 911 call...

"Gee, Mrs. Smith, we're real sorry that you were raped and sodomized. You see, we've just got our hands full inspecting motorcycles, and we just can't pull ourselves away to actually protect citizens..."

Go ahead and make yer Harley yodel!
 

·
Addicted to American Iron
Joined
·
460 Posts
wildey said:
Ok here is my question. With all the epa talk about changing your bike from stock to modified and dealers not wanting to do anything because of the fines, what is going to happen to us when we need service and the mods have been done?
Thank you
Those that currently do their own work will continue to do their own work and those that currently don't will learn or ride stock. A terrible thing for us lazy ones :laugh:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,467 Posts
mahlerite said:
They can pass all the laws they want. Someone has to enforce those laws. IMO, the new laws, if they pass, will be meaningless. Why? Because the states are all broke. The Fed Gov't is giving less money to them, besides the fact that almost every agency that doesn't shoot or blow things up from the air is getting it's budget slashed. Imagine this scenario:
Right you are!
Another example of the supreme law of the land not worth the paper it's written on.
So I agree.
I will stay out of the political arena on this tech forum, but suffice it to say that in the future, how soon I don't know, the run good go fast Harleys we love will be big bad Nose and Butt plugged stock appearing beasts. A few more hurdles to jump through but the ingenious hot rodders we are we will persevere
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
As I understand after looking through these laws on the EPA pages,
most of the laws have been on the books for years, some since
the 90s. How about a 'Million Bike Run' to show 'em who they're working
for, not the other way around. %[email protected]

Rooster:beer4u:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
401 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
So does anyone have any suggestions to my questions? I read in the epa guide that all bikes prior to 06 will not be affected. But what about us 06 and newer riders?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
946 Posts
Wildy,
I don't think anyone can give you a good answer on this one. Who ever knows what the government will do and when. Personally I would get what you want done to the bike and ride. Live for today, If they crack down at sometime in the future deal with it then. My -2$en#e-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,467 Posts
The answer to the question needs to be reverse engineered based on how thorough they get at the emmisions checks. Will noise be considered too. We need to know the letter of the states interpetation and enforcement of the law then we can get down and dirty.
 

·
OLDBOY
Joined
·
784 Posts
wildey said:
So does anyone have any suggestions to my questions? I read in the epa guide that all bikes prior to 06 will not be affected. But what about us 06 and newer riders?
A decent layman’s explanation can be found here

The following is how I understand the whole EPA thing and I am probably wrong. *TIBS* So take it for what it is worth.

The No Tampering Rule has been on the books since 1979, part of the Clean Air Act of 79 and it's always been the same, any mod that affects the emissions, i.e. Pipes, Air Cleaner, EFI, Carb, Tire size, Pulley, etc., is against the law, period. This law has not changed an there have always been fines associated with violating this rule.

For 06 the allowable emission levels have changed and bikes have to be built accordingly. These levels are escalating with each new year. Also the addition of Cats may be required for models 06 and later to meet this new standard.

The biggest changes are to the mfgs of motorcycles. I believe there are 2 mfg classes now, more than 3000 and less than 3000. The new laws require them all to be certified EPA compliant in 06. The 3000+ mfgs like HD have each model and their components certified and then produce many of each model. There is an exempt class that a custom shop can build, each shop is allowed up to 25 EPA exempt MCs that can be sold to the general public (but limits their use to riding to and from shows). The 26th - 3000th have to be individually certified by the EPA making it basically impossible due to the high costs of individual certification. Also there is a once in a lifetime exemption for individuals, every person can build one custom for themselves that is EPA except and can not be sold for a minimum of 5 years.

Technically, any bike 79 - 2005 would be subject to the same rules as the 06 and later, there is no grandfather clause written into the law. However, as stated earlier in this thread the issue becomes enforcement. Once states have adapted EPA inspection, probably in the form of emission testing somewhere down the line, the 06s are subject to a much higher standard.

So... Currently the law doesn’t really differentiate, other than emission levels, 06 from 05 models for mfgs like HD, but does for customs because they were previously exempt. Once enforcement is in place, i.e. emissions testing, 06 is the first year all mfg models and customs will be on the same page. It's reasonable to believe enforcement will be easier (and more fair) if all 05s and earlier are exempt rather than trying to sort out things like... A 04 Softail is not exempt while an 04 OCC bike is (or any custom or composite).

Note: There is debate when these new rules took effect, the law states March 15th 04 but for legal reasons others believe the effective date to be 06. I don’t understand that particular debate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
EPA Stealth Mode

Another reason to like using stock heads and cylinders for performance work.
I prefer reworked stock heads anyway, and they don't have some name brand like Screamin' Eagle or S&S on the side to draw unnecessary attention to the bikes by EPA cops.
It's a lot easier to fly under the radar if your engine looks stock.:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Those of us over a certain age vividly recall when this started happening to cars in a big time way. In 1970, there were modest antipollution controls on cars; and the factories made engines that were very powerful. By 1973, antipollution standards had become much stricter and the cars ran poorly. In 1975, the era of the catalytic converter dawned and helped somewhat. But compression was all gone and cam duration fell off a cliff (can't have unburned mix flowing out the exhaust valve and overheating the catalyst, you know). For instance, the 1975-1977 Corvettes had the lowest HP ever (except maybe the early 1950's "Blue Flame" 6 cylinder ones). The automakers eventually learned to substantially increase output while meeting increasingly strict EPA antipollution standards.

This is heresy to HD guys, I know, but fuel injection and computers saved cars. Look at the output of some small engines even without turbocharging.

Motorcycles will follow a similar path. Carbs will vanish first, then O2 feedback sensors will sprout, maybe some EGR too, to 'control combustion'. So intake and ignition timing will become computer controlled; and we may have dual ramp valves (or whatever they're called) that have variable timing depending on rpm and load. Oh yes, I forgot: wave goodbye to air cooling (think Porsche finally biting the bullet) and the ability to improve performance without dealing with computer chips. (Think "tuner" mobiles popular on TV).
 

·
Average Dude
Joined
·
6,263 Posts
And for these reasons, Fullsac Performance may do very well in the future. Don't throw away your stock mufflers!!

For those of you who are asking ...why?, Fullsac will perform magic on your stock mufflers and send back to you, a performance muffler that looks completely stock on the outside.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
We face the same problem at our dealership. The Screamin Eagle stuff is like flying a flag, so the boss is getting concerned.
That suits me fine, I have always preferred using the Head Quarters stuff anyway because it performs so much better. Now we will be using more of it because it looks stock and what the EPA don't no....won't whurt them.:D
 

·
The Alter Ego
Joined
·
5,580 Posts
RoosterFLHTCI said:
As I understand after looking through these laws on the EPA pages,
most of the laws have been on the books for years, some since
the 90s. How about a 'Million Bike Run' to show 'em who they're working
for, not the other way around. %[email protected]

Rooster:beer4u:
Start the petition. The million biker ride on Washington D.C. Ear plugs, however not mandatory are highly recommended. All who join this ride must bring own tent and steel toe boots. :whistle:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
191 Posts
enforcement will be tough though the only way it will be able to be enforced with be through an emissions test at the time of inspection renewal. there will be no other way to do it, period. I am running a SE air cleaner with duel fishtails on my 04 injected heritage, i will put this bike side by side with any new harley on the showroom floor including the 06 oxygen sensored dyna's and have a hundred my is cleaner with the current set up with the pcb III usb in its current setting. I live in a county where emission testing is done at inspection time and my 4 wheel vehicles pull almost 0's on the anazyler, i love to confuse the techs trying to figure out what i have done, i add nothing to the fuel.... there are solutions coming down the road, all i can say is sniff my pipes and kiss my ass:
 

·
Hellbound Train
Joined
·
5,595 Posts
When Baton Rouge had air quality issues, not only did they check annually, there were also roving check points. Murder rate was high but emission testing was paid by the feds (cops got OT). It don't matter what your components look like. The only thing that matters is the emission check. No inspector (or cop) is looking for an SE or S&S lable, just the end of your pipe. Go with Stage 1 and a flash, and you will be fine (except for db's). Use a DFO, maybe not. SERT or PCIII depending on pipes and properly tuned will pass an emission test but , probably not db's.
 

·
Nice to ride again :-)
Joined
·
1,802 Posts
I don't think the "sky is falling" but our wallets are going to get relived a bit. I don't know what it is in other states but in PA where I live my yearly inspection fee is 62.40 for my car. I have a Stage II Turbo GT PT Cruiser making close to 300 HP with 3" cat/exhaust, and boost to about 20-22 LBS. I have NO problems passing it but here they are just reading ECU for codes and test the gas cap. Don't know if I would pass a sniffer or not.

I think this will be the "enforcement" for bikes also. I think we should fight what we can on this issue for sure. But I also think it is not the end of the world for us performance junkies. Performance and Emissions are achievable in this day and age it just is not as easy as a new slide and a couple of jets.

As the man said "the times are a changing".
 

·
In disguise
Joined
·
2,908 Posts
Here's a FAQ sheet from the EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/roadbike/420f03046.pdf

I don't know how dealers or shops can legally alter the engines of 2006 and newer bikes unless doing so does not cause the motor to increase emissions over the new standards. They can't "legally make modifications that would cause the emissions to exceed the applicable standards, and they cannot remove or disable emission control devices installed by the manufacturer". It would seem to me that pretty much all engine mods would be included in that statement.

The EPA document also states that "Anything manufactured prior to the 2006 model year will not be affected".

I've lived in Georgia and North Carolina before moving to Florida. In those first two states, vehicles were required to undergo annual emissions testing and approval prior to eligibility for a required annual license plate renewal. It's all computerized by VIN and the state DMV, so it was impossible (legally) to get a tag without a current, approved emissions inspection. That's how the enforcement issue was handled. Flunk the test--no tag.

Florida, for one state, has no such requirement for cars or motorcycles, so since this a Federal thing, I suppose all states not currently requiring emissions inspections will be required to start, and 2006 and newer bikes will be included along with cars and trucks.
 

·
OLDBOY
Joined
·
784 Posts
FXR2 said:
The EPA document also states that "Anything manufactured prior to the 2006 model year will not be affected".
That quote is refering to the "the New Motorcycle Emission Standards". I believe that is just claiming that pre 06 bikes will not be subject to the new 06 reduced emission level requirements but it is not saying that the old emission standards will not be enforced on earlier models. All mfg models (not custom or composites) have had to meet emissions standards for years just now the standards are much higher. So it is still a reason to be happy I have an 04.
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top