V-Twin Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I got a 116" twin cam with jagg oil cooler,625 lift S&S gear drive, roller rockers G carb w\thunderjet, S&S heads, delkron cam plate. Had trouble with over heating and noticed oil consumption would go way up when it got hot.....235 degrees or so. I installed a S&S IST ign. to try to cool things off. Knocking stopped but still ran warm. I figured I had too small a gap in rings, it would get hot and the oil would get by the rings because they would bind. That would account for the hot engine and oil problem. Had to add a half quart every 150 miles or so but never saw smoke. Up and bought new rings and was going to replace them after a t-day ride. Was out in the garage today, checked oil and its frickin OVER full. There is no way I know of for oil to drain into the pan from engine, it has to be pumped. What the hell is going on here? I'm about ready to sell this SOB......if it wasn't so much fun eating choppers with a radio playing bagger.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,114 Posts
MarkCrain said:
I got a 116" twin cam with jagg oil cooler,625 lift S&S gear drive, roller rockers G carb w\thunderjet, S&S heads, delkron cam plate. Had trouble with over heating and noticed oil consumption would go way up when it got hot.....235 degrees or so. I installed a S&S IST ign. to try to cool things off. Knocking stopped but still ran warm. I figured I had too small a gap in rings, it would get hot and the oil would get by the rings because they would bind. That would account for the hot engine and oil problem. Had to add a half quart every 150 miles or so but never saw smoke. Up and bought new rings and was going to replace them after a t-day ride. Was out in the garage today, checked oil and its frickin OVER full. There is no way I know of for oil to drain into the pan from engine, it has to be pumped. What the hell is going on here? I'm about ready to sell this SOB......if it wasn't so much fun eating choppers with a radio playing bagger.
If the rings were binding they would break into several peices and you would have very little compression.
When are you adding oil...as your gassing up on a ride or before you leave the house, engine hot or cold???
Are you running the 116'' S&S motor??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Adding oil before I leave on a ride, cold engine, fill it to 1/4" below full. HD motor with S&S 116" kit.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,289 Posts
MarkCrain said:
Help a old dumb ass out, define how "sumping" works in the twin cam.
I am going out on limb here, but when I had issues with temperature and perceived high oil consumption, I found the oil pump to be the culprit. Sumping occurs when the intake side (scavenging side) of the pump does not pump enough so that oil accumulates in the crank case. This among other thing leads to erratic readings of the oil level and heavy engine load as the crank works as butter churn. That's what people refer to as sumping. There maybe other reasons for that, but in my case the pump scavenging side was destroyed by some metal object thus bringing the oil circulating to a minimum. I learned that erratic oil level readings coupled with high engine temps could spell trouble.

FWIW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,300 Posts
You never know, in this case with the bike having an external oil cooler, depending on it's location, it may introduce a element of inconsistency in oil level readings.



Sumping with the TC's (in addition to the traditional meaning) means that the scavenge section of the pump allows oil to accumulate in the crank cavity.
Usually this would be noticed by a loss of power, but if it is very mild it may not, ie a few OZ at the time and filling up to level every time can easily lead to the wrong conclusion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
OK, heres a freaky little tidbit of info. My oil pressure is abnormally high. Always has been. I do run the 1999 oil pump now cause when I blew up the bike many moons ago (many moons = 60,000 miles) the cam support plate was littered with crap. Was able to scroung up a new\used one without many miles from a 99. The 99 doesn't use the spring. I didn't have a oil pressure guage then so I don't know about before the bang.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,114 Posts
MarkCrain said:
OK, heres a freaky little tidbit of info. My oil pressure is abnormally high. Always has been. I do run the 1999 oil pump now cause when I blew up the bike many moons ago (many moons = 60,000 miles) the cam support plate was littered with crap. Was able to scroung up a new\used one without many miles from a 99. The 99 doesn't use the spring. I didn't have a oil pressure guage then so I don't know about before the bang.
The feed gear is larger in the 99 pump so that will give you more flow, the pressure might be coming from the pressure slide in the Delcron cam plate.
I agree with Hippo on the level issue with the oil coller and posibable the height of the cooler.
Sumping is something that will happen in a softail model but I'm not too sure it will be a factor in your touring model since the oil bag is low and not a gravity feed like a softail.
I also agree with VH for a oil pump alignment problem....it could be an internal oil leak at the cam plate and engine oil return port with the after market cam plate your running.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
internal oil leak would make for low oil pressure wouldn't it? Had high oil pressure before changing to delkron plate also. possible its not scavaging as it slows EXTREAMLY fast when I let off on it. I attributed it to being a stroker and more leverage. maybe, maybe not. What the hell am I going to do with the extra rings I just bought? Man what a pain.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,114 Posts
MarkCrain said:
internal oil leak would make for low oil pressure wouldn't it? Had high oil pressure before changing to delkron plate also. possible its not scavaging as it slows EXTREAMLY fast when I let off on it. I attributed it to being a stroker and more leverage. maybe, maybe not. What the hell am I going to do with the extra rings I just bought? Man what a pain.
If its decelerating fast its more than likley full of oil like Hippo said.
I was refering to an internal oil leak in the return system letting the oil just pump back into the cam chest instead into the oil bag. The 99 oil pump will let sumping happen...the oil tank being low still might run oil into the crank case finding its own level.
I'd replace the pump with a new style pump and make sure the delcron cam plate is not warped at the mating surfaces.
Give the rings away for Christmas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
When I read your post, I thought you had a scavenging problem and Doc and the other wizzards have confirmed that. I remembered reading something about that problem on a website (Fueling?) and I saved the following from it. It describes what you've been going through. FYI, when I spoke to the guys at S&S about my 116 and mentioned the Fueling pump, they cautioned against putting too much oil into the top end because of carryover. However, Fueling's add says that carryover is one of the things their pump cures. I think it might be a good option for you.

Feuling Dyno-developed and track tested this combination of the Feuling Super Pump and HP + Hydraulic lifters. It will allow the Twin Cam motorcycle engine to provide maximum power, reliability and longevity. If the scavenge pump is not up to the job, running at sustained high speeds and/or elevated engine rpm will fill the crankcase and cam chest with oil and drop the level in the oil tank. The customer/rider may observe that the oil level in the motorcycle tank is low and add MORE oil further exacerbating the problem. The Harley Davidson factory recognized that a problem exists and issued TECH TIP #54 "TC-88 Oil Pump Alignment". The real problem is pump size and abnormal wear. The potential for engine oil discharging out of the breather/air cleaner onto the rider-passenger-rear brake and tire is real!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,413 Posts
MarkCrain said:
Adding oil before I leave on a ride, cold engine, fill it to 1/4" below full. HD motor with S&S 116" kit.
Nobody mentioned this statement but I think that's way too much oil in a cold engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,300 Posts
True, it would be more of a factor on a large engine that tends to develop more heat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,589 Posts
brdman hit the oil problem on the head. DO NOT add oil when cold as you are not getting a correct level before it's started or warm. Second, 235 is not real hot for a 116". So, Mark, your problem is solved because you don't have one.
 

·
Highly Seasoned Rider!
Joined
·
4,884 Posts
GRock said:
brdman hit the oil problem on the head. DO NOT add oil when cold as you are not getting a correct level before it's started or warm. Second, 235 is not real hot for a 116". So, Mark, your problem is solved because you don't have one.
I agree that 235 deg. F. may not be too hot. When I bought my 2004 FLHTCUI, I was told that they run at 235 deg. stock. It could be that there is no problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
235 being norm is good to hear, but it tends to get above that on the highway. I havnt had a chance to get out on the highway since the IST ign. so we'll see. As far as filling cold, I only fill to 1/2-1/4 from full. When the engine is hot it still not up quite to the full mark.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,413 Posts
I'd never fill above the halfway mark on a cold engine. Maybe it's just me but I can check mine on a road trip (when good and hot) and get a different reading every time. Same with the guys I ride with (all baggers). Not to mention it's getting harder and harder to find a level spot at any gas station. If there is any kind of slope, then forget accurate readings.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top