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I understand all the talk about the already killed and their sacrifice shouldn't be in vain. I feel where that comes from. But why encourage more loss of our men when it isn't going to solve anything? There was no al queda in iraq befor our "liberation". it's been proven that our commander-in-chief lied to us all. in fact, the reigning troika determined that a baseless war in iraq was more important than a real push in afghanistan to find al queda. but all that is now blood over the dam. if we do have a sudden pull-out then iraq will break into a 3 or 4 front of civil war and that could end up either bad or good but most likely bad. worst case scenario is ww3 will not start between nato and warsaw or china and taiwan but in the mideast and it may not start with israel but it may be finished by israel. ww4 will be fought with sticks and stones. so I guess that means that USA will stay there in perpetuity, lose around a thousand men a year, in the name of world peace. besides, it will be good for our military-industrial complex as a testing ground for new weapons. at least we will get some cool consumer devices out of this progress.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
dtroll said:
I agree..........they need to start bring troops home soon to give them a well deserved rest and for a just in case scenario.

{salute(
Well that's the one thing we don't have right now- a reserve force. We accomplished this, in the Army anyway, through a Division Ready Brigade (DRB). We don't do that anymore because we can't. Looks like the CJCS is looking to change that.

I, and many others, can tell you that a yr(+) in sustained combat is a VERY long time. And 15 months deployed with 12 months home to get ready to go again is virtually impossible to do. I can write volumes on that because I live it. Long story short, my unit has only 6 of its 18 howitzers, we are at 70% strength because of all of the PCS moves after the deployment and we won't even be at 100% strength, on personnel or equipment, by the time we're slated to deploy again next year. Yes, we can still go off and throttle any militia, Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc.
 

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HiAngle said:
Well that's the one thing we don't have right now- a reserve force. We accomplished this, in the Army anyway, through a Division Ready Brigade (DRB). We don't do that anymore because we can't. Looks like the CJCS is looking to change that.

I, and many others, can tell you that a yr(+) in sustained combat is a VERY long time. And 15 months deployed with 12 months home to get ready to go again is virtually impossible to do. I can write volumes on that because I live it. Long story short, my unit has only 6 of its 18 howitzers, we are at 70% strength because of all of the PCS moves after the deployment and we won't even be at 100% strength, on personnel or equipment, by the time we're slated to deploy again next year. Yes, we can still go off and throttle any militia, Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc.
This seems to be a major topic of conversation on every base I work on...there is quite a bit of disillusionment as well about this whole war effort now too...the "lets kick some a$$" attitude appears to have given way to the "when are we gonna get out of there" lament, you can see/hear the wearyness of our solders.
 

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swmnkdinthervr said:
...the "lets kick some a$$" attitude appears to have given way to the "when are we gonna get out of there" lament, you can see/hear the wearyness of our solders.

I think because the rules of engagment did not allow you "... kick some a$$".

The prosecution of innocent soliders doing their job, is why "when are we gonna get out of there" the natural end result.

You can not fight a war with your 'arms' tied behind your back.

This also makes the sacrfice of those who died more heart breaking!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
knuckleheader said:
I think because the rules of engagment did not allow you "... kick some a$$".

The prosecution of innocent soliders doing their job, is why "when are we gonna get out of there" the natural end result.

You can not fight a war with your 'arms' tied behind your back.

This also makes the sacrfice of those who died more heart breaking!

Ahhhh, having been there I can tell you that the ROE does allow us to kick somebody's a$$. So I would argue that our hands are not tied behind our back. A COIN fight is very difficult and it requires separating the enemy from the population. So if we go ripping through a neighborhood and level it to the ground, we have only made things worse for ourselves not better. The enemy knows they can't defeat us militarily, so they use tactics such as IEDs, suicide attacks, etc.,

Some of the Soldiers who have been charged with crimes deserve to be charged. We should never allow ourselves to stoop to their (our enemy) level. Yes, it's tough to control your emotions at times and the immediate reaction is to lash out and inflict more damage than what was just inflicted upon you. However, it doesn't make it right. I certainly don't want to be in an Army that is void of moral standards.
 

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mixed emotions

As one that was going to win the war in 1971 and came back pi$$ed off at the government's MIS-management of the war, I just don't know how to deal with the present situation. I will say Rumsfeld is like McNamara in that no matter how many mistakes he made the president didn't tell him you're nuts and fired leave. Johnson's major mistake is the same as Bush's.

What to do now? ya leave now and it goes to worse crap than is is. I think this will be like Korea, years there.

My ride if ya are interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-4_Phantom_II
 

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HiAngle said:
Ahhhh, having been there I can tell you that the ROE does allow us to kick somebody's a$$. So I would argue that our hands are not tied behind our back. A COIN fight is very difficult and it requires separating the enemy from the population. So if we go ripping through a neighborhood and level it to the ground, we have only made things worse for ourselves not better. The enemy knows they can't defeat us militarily, so they use tactics such as IEDs, suicide attacks, etc.,

Some of the Soldiers who have been charged with crimes deserve to be charged. We should never allow ourselves to stoop to their (our enemy) level. Yes, it's tough to control your emotions at times and the immediate reaction is to lash out and inflict more damage than what was just inflicted upon you. However, it doesn't make it right. I certainly don't want to be in an Army that is void of moral standards.

Yes we can have moral standards,however


Perhaps we could do a better job of keeping out insurgents crossing into Iraq.

How about disarming the civilians, put them in jail till we sort things out.

Though there has to be a time when you make them a little more scared to come out to harm you.

Eventually you have to care more about your own survival and less moral reflection.

There is never a moral way to conduct war.

There has to come a time when you stop needlessly sacrificing your own.


Or put W's own family on the front line.


By the way I think it's a waste of time trying to have sunni, shiite and kurds share in democracy.

Go back before the Brits made it one country, divide it into(the way it was before)into three parts.

Kinda like divide and defeat
 

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Discussion Starter #10
knuckleheader said:
Though there has to be a time when you make them a little more scared to come out to harm you.

Eventually you have to care more about your own survival and less moral reflection.

There is never a moral way to conduct war.

There has to come a time when you stop needlessly sacrificing your own.

Well you get the luxury of being a monday morning quarterback and there are those of us who do not.

1) They are scared of us-- hence their tactics.
2) We always care about our survival but we don't lose our moral standards. For example, we had one fine NCO who tackled a suicide bomber in order to protect children. Seems to me morality won that time.
3) There is always a way to conduct a moral war. To say otherwise is vod of any logic.
4) Who has been "needlessly sacrificed"? Don't forget that those who have killed loved their country and knew the risks. My guess is you don't have the right to use their good names at your attempt to make some ridiculous "bumper sticker slogan" comment.
 

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roofeditor said:
As one that was going to win the war in 1971 and came back pi$$ed off at the government's MIS-management of the war, I just don't know how to deal with the present situation. I will say Rumsfeld is like McNamara in that no matter how many mistakes he made the president didn't tell him you're nuts and fired leave. Johnson's major mistake is the same as Bush's.

What to do now? ya leave now and it goes to worse crap than is is. I think this will be like Korea, years there.

My ride if ya are interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-4_Phantom_II
Not trying to rehash the VN era here but let's face it, things didn't turn out so bad given time. Once you get past the re-education camps era, VN seems to be a responsible world citizen. Working on tourism and commerce just like everyone else. It's not beligerant to neighbors, doesn't seem to be supporting world terrorism. Unfortunately the problem with Iraq is 2-fold: first ya got the religion problem. Imagine if the USA broke into armed camps of methodists, baptists, lutherans, and episcopalians. The jews and catholics would probably form a mutual defence pact. There is no way we could survive as a single country. The 2nd problem is that arabs, in general, are crazy motherfrickers and there is no cure for that. Admit it...the situation is hopeless, thankyou, George, and there is nothing anyone of any political persuasion can now do about it. Stock up on bottled water and propane.
 

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HiAngle said:
Well that's the one thing we don't have right now- a reserve force. We accomplished this, in the Army anyway, through a Division Ready Brigade (DRB). We don't do that anymore because we can't. Looks like the CJCS is looking to change that.

I, and many others, can tell you that a yr(+) in sustained combat is a VERY long time. And 15 months deployed with 12 months home to get ready to go again is virtually impossible to do. I can write volumes on that because I live it. Long story short, my unit has only 6 of its 18 howitzers, we are at 70% strength because of all of the PCS moves after the deployment and we won't even be at 100% strength, on personnel or equipment, by the time we're slated to deploy again next year. Yes, we can still go off and throttle any militia, Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc.
I seem to remember 17 mos for VietNam. This was with (mostly) unwilling 18-19 yr olds. Yes, the goverment screwed up when they reduced the number of men in arms and the reserve. Yes, is is messed up that we are overworking the soldiers these days.
They did sign up for it, they are doing thier work, I am glad that they are in the service. I would much rather see them doing thier jobs outside of Iraq. Whatever happens, it will not end well. I do not want to see another soldier have as much as a hangnail in Iraq. Many people will want to blame the men on the ground for the failed policies of thier commander in chief, but we all know.
These people are heroes doing a job that they probabley do not want to do at great personal sacrafice, I applaud them. I still don't think that they should be there.
 

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HiAngle said:
Well you get the luxury of being a monday morning quarterback and there are those of us who do not.

1) They are scared of us-- hence their tactics.
2) We always care about our survival but we don't lose our moral standards. For example, we had one fine NCO who tackled a suicide bomber in order to protect children. Seems to me morality won that time.
3) There is always a way to conduct a moral war. To say otherwise is vod of any logic.
4) Who has been "needlessly sacrificed"? Don't forget that those who have killed loved their country and knew the risks. My guess is you don't have the right to use their good names at your attempt to make some ridiculous "bumper sticker slogan" comment.
yeh,all my comments come from the monday QB seat


Good thing you are not the arbitor to state my point of view.

You just have to accept the fact I don't want( have to go by the evidence presented to me) people like you dieing in vain.

I would not try to manufacture "bumper stickers" at your expense.

I will not judge your right to your opinion, it's as valid as mine.

Even if we disagree.
 

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DJW said:
HiAngle, I hear you are going to get some neighbors.

I am??? Well FT Drum continues to expand-- is that what you mean?

Edit--- Obviously it is-- http://www.syracuse.com/articles/news/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1189328272213120.xml&coll=1 I found that on NewzJunky. Oddly enough the Watertown Daily Times had nothing about it in today's paper. I knew in late 2005 there was talk of adding another BDE. Since I have been here the rumor has been that our 4th BDE, down at Polk, is coming here. It looks like we will be getting a Longbow BN here- Longbows are the updated Apache. But they will be replacing one of the Kiowa units. In any event, Drum will only get bigger, not smaller.

I do know my next door neighbor won't be home from Iraq for another 11 mos, and my former college roommate, who also happens to be my neighbor,will be back in about 50 days. Here I thought I was going to hang with my old college roomate and I deploy in early 2006 and he deploys mid 2006 and gets the bonus round-- 15 mos tour.
 

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knuckleheader said:
They wouldn't happen to come from Iraq, would they?
:huh: Well in your weak attempt to be witty, I'll answer the comment. Yes, both of my neighbors would be coming from Iraq since one is deployed with 3-17 CAV and the other with 2-15 FA.
 

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route66paul said:
Many people will want to blame the men on the ground for the failed policies of thier commander in chief, but we all know.
Perhaps some of the military planners, but not the folks who are "where the rubber meets the road".
 

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HiAngle- Back to the original post. I'm with you on the lack of sustainability. A 6 month stay in Qatari paradise pales in comparison with what the foot soldiers do but I saw a lot of evidence to support your statement.

The people are the most important asset but the equipment is going to start failing in tragic numbers soon. Speaking personally we had two things happen that the engineers who designed our jets could not explain. One jet couldn't keep up with a tanker unless the jet used afterburners(that's not good!). Another had a mechanical failure that seemed impossible. 2 pins, each about 2 inches in diameter, sheared simultaniously(In a critical part of the jet). No one has been able to explain it.

The war is cheap now. When the equipment fails, people die and the finger can be pointed right back at us. We can't fund this war for much longer so our presence has to be reduced.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by route66paul
Many people will want to blame the men on the ground for the failed policies of thier commander in chief, but we all know.


HiAngle said:
Perhaps some of the military planners, but not the folks who are "where the rubber meets the road".

The "many people" that I was referring to would be civilians. In VietNam, the soldier was vilified. It is not there yet, but it will be getting there.
The watercooler editorials are getting more and more on the side of "let's bring 'em home". The president's idea of let's split up a demoralized army and we'll fight on 2 fronts, is not sound policy.

I was against this war in the first place, what and who are we defending? It appears that we are defending a corrupt goverment who knows that they only have a few months, so they are grabbing what they can.

Our policy of propping up unstable goverments is going to bite us in the a$$ even one more time. I don't think that politicians ever study history except for ways to steal from thier own government when everything is topsy-turvey.
 
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