[LAF]

First off BIG thanks to my Mentor and friend Dynatherapy.

Second off HDWRENCH as a vendor is second to NONE!

Now the tale:
Up early, off for a quick 40 mile blast and go visit with my kids. 3/4 way there, 4 lane, 65-75 mph, she starts to clatter a little louder than I am used to, same motor rhythm, just louder. No loss of power! Get to the kids house, let it idle for a minuet, yep loud as hell. Shut it down, looked at the gages and oil psi is about 10 or so at idle, oil temp 190. Shut it down. Hang out with the kids an hour or so and need to go. Start it, is still loud, no oil any where, oil was checked at start full as since the change. No smoke out the pipes, just loud. OK say I am going to run it for home, tools, lift, manual.

Find that if I keep it at load, light throttle at all times, noise lessens and it is only about half as loud as normal, have to make a stop at a light and man it is clamoring, oil psi 10 at idle, 38-40 on load, oil temp 190-200. Again no loss of power! Although I was in no hurry to run it to the 6400 red line either. Finally get it home and shut it down. Let cool, start the bike, stereoscope in ear start probing. I had thought the Comp nut was coming off again. Nope just a nice whir. Next front jug, lot going on but just the "normal" sounds. Rear, and a whole lot of not "normal" going on. Move around bike and probe from the top down and it gets louder. Hit the rear tappet block and just behind it and reached up and shut it down.


Well guess that is where to start, tappets, and push rods. Now on my bike if you don't remove the heads, you must remove the tappet blocks to get the push rods and tappets out. No sweat so few minuets later. well those back two allen on the blocks are a bittch with the damn jugs in the way.

Anyway 9000 miles on my build Jim's Power Glide failed in the intake of rear cylinder. Bent push rod and although I did glass them I had no need, the intake was visibly bent at the jam nut.

Nice lite wear of the tappet housings, just ever so slight scuffing, wheels very nice again, just a very nice thin wear line. Intake tappet after pumping oil in the hole and top with tube and pressure, filling the cup, and pumping on it it collapse to bottom no matter what, exhaust shows a willingness to pump up but the comparison is night and day in terms of play that is there in the first place.

Kind of proves why a load kept the noise down a little, more oil psi kept the lifter up more. Also slight, but there wear marks in the push rod tube, and when I hit them with the stethoscope, is was ugly. I was always told push rods rubbing in a tube is loud, now I can say it IS.

So I did a leak down test it is still at 3%. Same as it was a month ago, so I did dodge a bullet there!

Also mirrored the cam lobs and the are pristine with very nice light scuff line as the rollers, no pits no chunks out just nice smooth lobes. Another bullet dodged

Those two inspection reminders thanks to HDWRENCH, as he took my call, discussed my problem and symptoms, and we agreed on parts (and the tappets are not Jims) and shipment method. All this on a Saturday night. Again Steve is my go to man on parts and has NEVER let me down even when HE was down.

Dynatherapy for again mentoring me and making sure my logic and thought processes are sound. I can spin a wrench, but I am not a mechanic. Also the very cool tip on mirroring the rocker arm cup from the bottom of the jug to inspect it for scuff or distortion.

Sorry so long, might be some info for others to use.

Sure not how I had planned to spend a Sunny 74 degree Saturday here in PA.

 

[Totenkopf]

Wow! sorry to hear this LAF! Hopefully the repair will go smooth and you'll be back in business in no time. Thanks for sharing the story, Keep us posted.

 

[HDMD88]

Sorry to hear all that Laf, this is one good reason I don't use adjustable push rods in my builds...just one more thing that can go wrong.

 

[adlerx]

Sorry to hear all that Laf, this is one good reason I don't use adjustable push rods in my builds...just one more thing that can go wrong.

Doc, sorry if this question is just dense but for all my reading(and I have read volumes!), I just can't understand how internal combustion motors work.
First, let me say, You have definately convinced me on the solid pushrods. But in LAF's case, if the lifter took a crap and bent the pushrod(regardless if it was an adjustable or not), wouldn't he have to remove the heads to get to this just to check the lifter and pushrod? Or is this a case where the adjustable may have somehow caused the problem?
I am just trying to learn a little about this stuff....

 

[Duoglide_62]

Doc, sorry if this question is just dense but for all my reading(and I have read volumes!), I just can't understand how internal combustion motors work.
First, let me say, You have definately convinced me on the solid pushrods. But in LAF's case, if the lifter took a crap and bent the pushrod(regardless if it was an adjustable or not), wouldn't he have to remove the heads to get to this just to check the lifter and pushrod? Or is this a case where the adjustable may have somehow caused the problem?
I am just trying to learn a little about this stuff....

I won't speak for Doc, however I will say this. Most push rods that bend are adjustables and it's usually the threaded adjuster, not the aluminum or moly tube, that takes a dump. A one piece push rod is not as prone to bending, it's a lot lighter and they don't come out of adjustment. The draw back is more work to get at the bottom end.

 

[Road Glider]

LAF, sorry to read about the motor problems. Hope it works out ok.

 

[LAF]

Sorry to hear all that Laf, this is one good reason I don't use adjustable push rods in my builds...just one more thing that can go wrong.

Thanks Doc and everyone.

Really is more of an inconvenience than anything. Couple days down and some cash but otherwise not a disaster. It really could have been worse if that leak down would have came up different. Next build, if ever, I will loose the adjustable. I used them because of access without top end tear down because of the amount of work I did on the bike at one time. Namely the TW-6HG and if I needed to go in because of issues down the road.

Still the tappet appears to be at fault and I cant help wonder if the solid rod was in place and being stronger what would have happened then?

 

[HDMD88]

Doc, sorry if this question is just dense but for all my reading(and I have read volumes!), I just can't understand how internal combustion motors work.
First, let me say, You have definately convinced me on the solid pushrods. But in LAF's case, if the lifter took a crap and bent the pushrod(regardless if it was an adjustable or not), wouldn't he have to remove the heads to get to this just to check the lifter and pushrod? Or is this a case where the adjustable may have somehow caused the problem?
I am just trying to learn a little about this stuff....

I don't see a lifter bending a push rod...I can see the high lift spring pack stressing the push rod to failier then the lifter getting damaged.
There are Adjustable push rods and there are Time Savers....with the Time Savers you don't have to take off the rocker plate to remove the push rods so they are a convience. Adjustables are very weak at the adjuster, and with the spring pressure Laf is running for the cam profile the push rod is flexing at the weak point, after a while it will collaps.

 

[xxxflhrci]

I had an adjustable loosen up on me on an exhaust valve. I heard it tapping and pulled over. I was on the side of the interstate and couldn't hear very well. I tried starting the bike one too many times and the engine kicked back bending the pushrod.

 

[Ozzie In Arabia]

Hello LAF,

Sorry to hear of your misfortune again, I am one for solid pushrods also, really great that HDWrench set you on the right path and the Docs advice is excellent as always.

Hope it turns out ok and you are back on the road soon.

All the best, Ozzie

 

[LAF]

Thanks Ozzie.

I should be up mid week and it is now raining so at least the weather cooperated.

Yep Doc is right on as always.

I do pose this as what came first, the chicken (tappet) or the egg (push rod)?

Doc says the egg.

Others have said the chicken.

Point is I don't know.

As Dynatherapy said "welcome to the world of performance".

 

[Ozzie In Arabia]

Thanks Ozzie.

I should be up mid week and it is now raining so at least the weather cooperated.

Yep Doc is right on as always.

I do pose this as what came first, the chicken (tappet) or the egg (push rod)?

Doc says the egg.

Others have said the chicken.

Point is I don't know.

As Dynatherapy said "welcome to the world of performance".

Aint that the truth!!!!!!!!!!!

LAF, I have experienced the same issue when I rapped the bike to the limit and experienced lifter pump up and as Doc stated with the very strong spring rates I was running, ended up bending the rod.

It would also be prudent to check and see if you have bottomed out the valve spring cap to the oil seal and this is damaged or worse case...........it is possible to crack the valve guides.

Talk this over with HDWrench, Doc and Dynotherapy before you go in after this as it may not be necessary but should at least be considered.

All the best, Ozzie

 

[LAF]

Ozzie I hope it would have shown on the leak down test. I will have to button it up run it and then do another when at temp. I am hoping for the best.

 

[timbo]

Hmmm. Hate to hear about your engine LAF. Ya know I've got those same Smith Bros pushrods. But I'm running the TW5-G and SE Performance heads. So my spring pressures and lift aren't as high as yours. The lifters I have are made by Comp Cams. For me it's so far so good. HDWRENCH got me hooked up with all the parts. And yes you couldn't have dealt with a better person as he. Excellent customer service and support I agree.

Now if the lifter completely collapses hydraulically, what may have led to the bent pushrod would have been the the pounding force of the plunger bottoming out in the lifter itself putting extreme stress on the pushrod bending it. Is that correct? Is that whats going on when the lifter collapses? I'm curious.

Plus I'm also wondering like Doc if the adjustable pushrod itself just crapped out because of the high spring pressures in your heads and the lift of the TW6-G.

Well, all I know is that I'm glad for you that it didn't turn out any worse or destroy some high dollar components.

 

[vt-zeb]

Sorry for your misfortune LAF,
and since I am building a somewhat similar setup (TW6HG & Smith-Bros adj pushrods 3/8 )
This is pretty disturbing news to me ...

.... There are Adjustable push rods and there are Time Savers....with the Time Savers you don't have to take off the rocker plate to remove the push rods so they are a convience. Adjustables are very weak at the adjuster, and with the spring pressure Laf is running for the cam profile the push rod is flexing at the weak point, after a while it will collaps.

Doc - Are you saying that timesavers are better (stronger) than ajustable rods ?
If so would you recomend them on the TW6HG build,
or is solid ones the only way to go for ease of mind sake...?

zeb

 

[LAF]

Guys not sure if it was the chicken or the egg that went first. I have heard of Jim lifters blowing out but again who is to say if hearsay is accurate info.

I can say since I am already in, I am replacing both of the Smith Brothers, and changing both lifters to Comp. I have bought all four but I am only going to do the rear that is tweaked now. If I have another issue ever with push rods I will pull rocker boxes and install solids, period.

As Doc said one less thing to go wrong. I never imagined I could do this to these rods, but Doc was right on, it is bent from the jam nut down, absolutely the weak link.

I am going to set my rev limiter back from 6400 to 6000 in an effort to give more of an edge.

I still would like to know what would have happen to a solid if this event occurred? Since the Smiths do have a weak spot in the jam nut area and allowed it to bend, what would have bent if a solid is in place?

 

[HDMD88]

Guys not sure if it was the chicken or the egg that went first. I have heard of Jim lifters blowing out but again who is to say if hearsay is accurate info.

I can say since I am already in, I am replacing both of the Smith Brothers, and changing both lifters to Comp. I have bought all four but I am only going to do the rear that is tweaked now. If I have another issue ever with push rods I will pull rocker boxes and install solids, period.

As Doc said one less thing to go wrong. I never imagined I could do this to these rods, but Doc was right on, it is bent from the jam nut down, absolutely the weak link.

I am going to set my rev limiter back from 6400 to 6000 in an effort to give more of an edge.

I still would like to know what would have happen to a solid if this event occurred? Since the Smiths do have a weak spot in the jam nut area and allowed it to bend, what would have bent if a solid is in place?

Laf do you mean solid lifter or solid push rods??

 

[LAF]

Laf do you mean solid lifter or solid push rods??

Solid push rod.

 

[Seahag]

To tell you the truth, I've never heard of those Smith Brothers pushrods....how do they compare with the SE variety? I still have a sort of phantom noise, but I wasn't able to localize it with the stethoscope...so I'm currently planning to tear down the pushrods, and pull the lifters for a dissasemble and cleaning to see if some debris has worked its way in there, not allowing them to work properly.

 

[LAF]

To tell you the truth, I've never heard of those Smith Brothers pushrods....how do they compare with the SE variety? I still have a sort of phantom noise, but I wasn't able to localize it with the stethoscope...so I'm currently planning to tear down the pushrods, and pull the lifters for a dissasemble and cleaning to see if some debris has worked its way in there, not allowing them to work properly.

http://www.pushrods.net/

Well I think the biggest difference is SE are 7/16" and the Smith Bros are 3/8"

Composition may be another.

I cant blame one or the other and I don't think anyone can say for certain what failed first.