It was cold out. Let the bike warm up before you ride it. Let it idle for a few minutes and get the motor up to operating temp and then see how it runs.
Carb Fart with EFI -- How can that be????
I just bought a Heritage Classic and had the 95 Stage II Kit installed, along with V&H Pro Pipe HS. When I picked it up at the dealer it died a time or two while they were loading it onto my trailer. When I got it home it died a couple of times as I was taking it off of the trailer. It was around 30 degrees that day, so I attributed this to the temperature, even though I know FEI is not supposed to do this.
I now have 250 miles on the bike and Iam following the proper breakin procedure. The bike spits and misses -- sounds just like a Carb Fart -- at around 1800 - 2000 RPM's in a No Load condition. It accelerates just fine no miss or pop at all.
Of course I'll have the dealer take a look at it, but I'm 120 miles away & I'd sure like to have an idea of what this could be. Wrong MAP download? Anyone else experienced this problem?
Thanks for your input.
Eagle3 in Mississippi
I now have 250 miles on the bike and Iam following the proper breakin procedure. The bike spits and misses -- sounds just like a Carb Fart -- at around 1800 - 2000 RPM's in a No Load condition. It accelerates just fine no miss or pop at all.
Of course I'll have the dealer take a look at it, but I'm 120 miles away & I'd sure like to have an idea of what this could be. Wrong MAP download? Anyone else experienced this problem?
Thanks for your input.
Eagle3 in Mississippi
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
How much fuel was in the tank when you put it on the trailer?
I wonder if maybe you don't have some air in the system.
I wonder if maybe you don't have some air in the system.
eagle3 said:I just bought a Heritage Classic and had the 95 Stage II Kit installed, along with V&H Pro Pipe HS. When I picked it up at the dealer it died a time or two while they were loading it onto my trailer. When I got it home it died a couple of times as I was taking it off of the trailer. It was around 30 degrees that day, so I attributed this to the temperature, even though I know FEI is not supposed to do this.
I now have 250 miles on the bike and Iam following the proper breakin procedure. The bike spits and misses -- sounds just like a Carb Fart -- at around 1800 - 2000 RPM's in a No Load condition. It accelerates just fine no miss or pop at all.
Of course I'll have the dealer take a look at it, but I'm 120 miles away & I'd sure like to have an idea of what this could be. Wrong MAP download? Anyone else experienced this problem?
Thanks for your input.
Eagle3 in Mississippi
Well ,,,, i would guess you would not be having these problems if you had just left the bike stock ,,,, but since you didnt ,, you will have to play the game and spend the money to get the bike dialed in...... Its called the harley tax ,,,,,,i am sure the dealer will get things sorted out ,, but you may end up paying for it .......Face it when you do the mods you have to pay the price to make it run right.....
The suggestion that you need to let it warm up is valid ,, but with EFI ,,, you should not have to wait for it to run well ,,, i would guess you have a lean spot in your EFI map ..... The cold temps will lower density altitude ... requiring more fuel .......Again EFI should compensate for this ,,, but you may have a situation where its behond the ability of the system to adj. I have a carb bike that after 4 years started doing that in cold weather ,,,,at just the same rpm range ,,,,,, we took the carb apart and found a worn carb slide ....it caused a lean condition ,,,, replaced the slide and the problem was cured .... I am no EFI expert ,, but i would guess.....ya need a little more tweeking to dial things in ......face it you made some major changes .....dont expect perfection on the first try. rat
Harley with a cold
Eagle, while the weather could be a factor I dont think so,the HD fi system has many sensors to adjust for temp & altitude what has not been addresed is the fact that ALL Harleys come to us VERRRRRRY lean....the best way to fix this is A good dyno job and a power comander ...some people like the sert unit, while I dont, they do work its just a lot more time to get dialed in...your choice.
Good Luck
Steve The Dyno Guy :cheers:
eagle3 said:I just bought a Heritage Classic and had the 95 Stage II Kit installed, along with V&H Pro Pipe HS. When I picked it up at the dealer it died a time or two while they were loading it onto my trailer. When I got it home it died a couple of times as I was taking it off of the trailer. It was around 30 degrees that day, so I attributed this to the temperature, even though I know FEI is not supposed to do this.
I now have 250 miles on the bike and Iam following the proper breakin procedure. The bike spits and misses -- sounds just like a Carb Fart -- at around 1800 - 2000 RPM's in a No Load condition. It accelerates just fine no miss or pop at all.
Of course I'll have the dealer take a look at it, but I'm 120 miles away & I'd sure like to have an idea of what this could be. Wrong MAP download? Anyone else experienced this problem?
Thanks for your input.
Eagle3 in Mississippi
Eagle, while the weather could be a factor I dont think so,the HD fi system has many sensors to adjust for temp & altitude what has not been addresed is the fact that ALL Harleys come to us VERRRRRRY lean....the best way to fix this is A good dyno job and a power comander ...some people like the sert unit, while I dont, they do work its just a lot more time to get dialed in...your choice.
Good Luck
Steve The Dyno Guy :cheers:
Yeah, imagine a guy paying good money for mods and expecting the bike to run right. You got some nerve Eagle3! Mr Ratt seems to be scolding you for having the audacity to expect just that. After all, how can you expect HD to know how to tune an EFI bike after only having them on the market for 6 or 7 years now? And the Stage II kit? All over the country you would guess at least 10's of thousands of installs, if not more. Give them time, man! They need that extra time to get you into the shop three or four more times to be sure that you have emptied your wallet to make your bike run with these "major changes" (you may call it the Harley tax...most people call it something else!). That is, of course, if they know how. Seen a bunch of times that they will take it in, and you'll get it back running the same way; tell you a story about how you need the SERT for $450. Then they will hand you the handbook on the SERT and tell you good luck!!ratt said:Well ,,,, i would guess you would not be having these problems if you had just left the bike stock ,,,, but since you didnt ,, you will have to play the game and spend the money to get the bike dialed in...... Its called the harley tax ,,,,,,i am sure the dealer will get things sorted out ,, but you may end up paying for it .......Face it when you do the mods you have to pay the price to make it run right.....
The suggestion that you need to let it warm up is valid ,, but with EFI ,,, you should not have to wait for it to run well ,,, i would guess you have a lean spot in your EFI map ..... The cold temps will lower density altitude ... requiring more fuel .......Again EFI should compensate for this ,,, but you may have a situation where its behond the ability of the system to adj. I have a carb bike that after 4 years started doing that in cold weather ,,,,at just the same rpm range ,,,,,, we took the carb apart and found a worn carb slide ....it caused a lean condition ,,,, replaced the slide and the problem was cured .... I am no EFI expert ,, but i would guess.....ya need a little more tweeking to dial things in ......face it you made some major changes .....dont expect perfection on the first try. rat
As for the EFI, it has all the look up tables for cold weather running and everything else for that matter. Warming up an EFI bike does nothing to fix the problem. There is nothing wrong with the EFI. It is in the TUNING. Better than even chance that all they did was drop in a canned map (if they even did that) and sent you on their way with their fingers crossed. The fact that they let you leave the shop with the thing stalling out shows you how they feel about customer satisfaction. What ever happened to the days where it didn't leave until they got it right??
Let me tell you what the basic problem is. You are running lean, way lean! The Propipe (along with the addition of cubes and maybe cams) is scavenging the fuel at an accelerated rate and the map needs to be fattened up on a dyno to see where the problems lie. I will also venture a guess that the throttle position sensor is not calibrated out to 0% and you are out of the sensors voltage range of .35 to .45 millivolts that allows the bike to be reading the correct idle parameters in the ECU. Very common when you remove and replace the throttle body and screw with the throttle cable that it goes out of whack and needs to be reset. But, of course, there is no reason to believe that anyone at the dealer would have learned that in only seven years!
Good luck, you are going to need it!
Damn G,GRock said:Yeah, imagine a guy paying good money for mods and expecting the bike to run right. You got some nerve Eagle3! Mr Ratt seems to be scolding you for having the audacity to expect just that. After all, how can you expect HD to know how to tune an EFI bike after only having them on the market for 6 or 7 years now? And the Stage II kit? All over the country you would guess at least 10's of thousands of installs, if not more. Give them time, man! They need that extra time to get you into the shop three or four more times to be sure that you have emptied your wallet to make your bike run with these "major changes" (you may call it the Harley tax...most people call it something else!). That is, of course, if they know how. Seen a bunch of times that they will take it in, and you'll get it back running the same way; tell you a story about how you need the SERT for $450. Then they will hand you the handbook on the SERT and tell you good luck!!
As for the EFI, it has all the look up tables for cold weather running and everything else for that matter. Warming up an EFI bike does nothing to fix the problem. There is nothing wrong with the EFI. It is in the TUNING. Better than even chance that all they did was drop in a canned map (if they even did that) and sent you on their way with their fingers crossed. The fact that they let you leave the shop with the thing stalling out shows you how they feel about customer satisfaction. What ever happened to the days where it didn't leave until they got it right??
Let me tell you what the basic problem is. You are running lean, way lean! The Propipe (along with the addition of cubes and maybe cams) is scavenging the fuel at an accelerated rate and the map needs to be fattened up on a dyno to see where the problems lie. I will also venture a guess that the throttle position sensor is not calibrated out to 0% and you are out of the sensors voltage range of .35 to .45 millivolts that allows the bike to be reading the correct idle parameters in the ECU. Very common when you remove and replace the throttle body and screw with the throttle cable that it goes out of whack and needs to be reset. But, of course, there is no reason to believe that anyone at the dealer would have learned that in only seven years!
Good luck, you are going to need it!
I'm tired of your suger coating things.
Hey vafat, Happy New Year to yah! You know by now how this crap gets my goat! I mean, when did doing engine modifications become a 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5) step process?
"Well, sir, we DID put the parts on that you requested. Oh, you wanted it to run correctly, also?? In other words you actually expect to ride this thing? I'm not sure that we can handle that part, but here's an estimate for us to look at it while we scratch our heads for a few more days."
Imagine if eveyone did things like this.
"You mean you don't feel better after that new kidney replacement?? Funny, I put the thing in there myself. Maybe you should have told us that you wanted it to be hooked up to the veins and stuff while we were in there. Sometimes that helps with that feeling better crap you are talking about although I'll be damned if I know how to do it. But hey, how hard can it be?? Hell, now I have to postpone my vacation and read up on this stuff. That is going to cost you big time, buddy!"
It has to be a BIG money maker for them to not have figured out (for lack of a better word) how to work with their own damned EFI systems! But I guess when the sheep are out there saying "oh please sir, here's another few hundred. Please, pleeeease take it in to stare at for a few more days" it's hard to say no.
"Well, sir, we DID put the parts on that you requested. Oh, you wanted it to run correctly, also?? In other words you actually expect to ride this thing? I'm not sure that we can handle that part, but here's an estimate for us to look at it while we scratch our heads for a few more days."
Imagine if eveyone did things like this.
"You mean you don't feel better after that new kidney replacement?? Funny, I put the thing in there myself. Maybe you should have told us that you wanted it to be hooked up to the veins and stuff while we were in there. Sometimes that helps with that feeling better crap you are talking about although I'll be damned if I know how to do it. But hey, how hard can it be?? Hell, now I have to postpone my vacation and read up on this stuff. That is going to cost you big time, buddy!"
It has to be a BIG money maker for them to not have figured out (for lack of a better word) how to work with their own damned EFI systems! But I guess when the sheep are out there saying "oh please sir, here's another few hundred. Please, pleeeease take it in to stare at for a few more days" it's hard to say no.
Happy new year to you too!!!GRock said:Hey vafat, Happy New Year to yah! You know by now how this crap gets my goat! I mean, when did doing engine modifications become a 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5) step process?
"Well, sir, we DID put the parts on that you requested. Oh, you wanted it to run correctly, also?? In other words you actually expect to ride this thing? I'm not sure that we can handle that part, but here's an estimate for us to look at it while we scratch our heads for a few more days."
Imagine if eveyone did things like this.
"You mean you don't feel better after that new kidney replacement?? Funny, I put the thing in there myself. Maybe you should have told us that you wanted it to be hooked up to the veins and stuff while we were in there. Sometimes that helps with that feeling better crap you are talking about although I'll be damned if I know how to do it. But hey, how hard can it be?? Hell, now I have to postpone my vacation and read up on this stuff. That is going to cost you big time, buddy!"
It has to be a BIG money maker for them to not have figured out (for lack of a better word) how to work with their own damned EFI systems! But I guess when the sheep are out there saying "oh please sir, here's another few hundred. Please, pleeeease take it in to stare at for a few more days" it's hard to say no.
I was just jerkin your chain a lttle.
It's obvious your pissed that you know more about products than the companies who make it. That's a compliment to you and a indictment of manufacturers.
You know way more than most about this stuff. I know enough that you can't trust many to install and tune your machine. It's really sad to put out the bucks for performance only to be let down.
Later and thanks for the insights.
GRock said:Yeah, imagine a guy paying good money for mods and expecting the bike to run right. You got some nerve Eagle3! Mr Ratt seems to be scolding you for having the audacity to expect just that. After all, how can you expect HD to know how to tune an EFI bike after only having them on the market for 6 or 7 years now? And the Stage II kit? All over the country you would guess at least 10's of thousands of installs, if not more. Give them time, man! They need that extra time to get you into the shop three or four more times to be sure that you have emptied your wallet to make your bike run with these "major changes" (you may call it the Harley tax...most people call it something else!). That is, of course, if they know how. Seen a bunch of times that they will take it in, and you'll get it back running the same way; tell you a story about how you need the SERT for $450. Then they will hand you the handbook on the SERT and tell you good luck!!
As for the EFI, it has all the look up tables for cold weather running and everything else for that matter. Warming up an EFI bike does nothing to fix the problem. There is nothing wrong with the EFI. It is in the TUNING. Better than even chance that all they did was drop in a canned map (if they even did that) and sent you on their way with their fingers crossed. The fact that they let you leave the shop with the thing stalling out shows you how they feel about customer satisfaction. What ever happened to the days where it didn't leave until they got it right??
Let me tell you what the basic problem is. You are running lean, way lean! The Propipe (along with the addition of cubes and maybe cams) is scavenging the fuel at an accelerated rate and the map needs to be fattened up on a dyno to see where the problems lie. I will also venture a guess that the throttle position sensor is not calibrated out to 0% and you are out of the sensors voltage range of .35 to .45 millivolts that allows the bike to be reading the correct idle parameters in the ECU. Very common when you remove and replace the throttle body and screw with the throttle cable that it goes out of whack and needs to be reset. But, of course, there is no reason to believe that anyone at the dealer would have learned that in only seven years!
Good luck, you are going to need it!
I think in a round about way you and I are on the same page ,,,,, its going to take a little twiddling to make his bike run well ....and its going to cost some money...... call it the harley tax ,,, call it twiddling call it what you like ,,, without a dyno and a way to custom map the EFI to the mods its prolly not gonna run right on the first shot .... I am not scolding the guy ,,,, just letting him know the reality of the situation .....Its going to take some experimentation to make his bike run ......You sound very up to speed on EFI and mods .......And find nothing wrong with your diagnosis. I think you are spot on. But i will say that he aint the first guy that ends up going back after mods for a little tweekin ,and he wont be the last,, and if you are a pro HD nut twister for a living i assure you that all your tune jobs aint perfect on the first shot out of the service bay .... My dealer told me right up front ,,, you are best served with EFI to just ride it stock ..... because when you start down the engine mod road ,,,, there will be some frusteration on both ends of the deal as well as money spent, you were not counting on,,,,,canned maps will only get you so far ,,, when you choose to go with a botique of after market pipes and mods .... Just be glad you dont have to take it up and actually test fly it ,,,,,a little spit on a EFI is alot less stress than having to shut down the left engine on the first test flight and bring it back on one with the fresh overhaul caged and feathered .........From what it sounds ,,, he lives in a place with winter. IF the dealer doesnt have a dyno ... and cant really do a good job of test riding ,,, you are correct its a punt .....and this one didnt go between the goal posts..... I am in michigan......Getting out to ride isnt that easy in the winter ,,, but i did get to do a little polar bear ride today ......we had a good thaw and some rain ,,, and temps in the high 30s today .......So the 2006 riding season has gotten under way ...... i rode last new years day as well ......rat
Oh, we're far from being on the same page!ratt said:I think in a round about way you and I are on the same page ,,,,, its going to take a little twiddling to make his bike run well ....and its going to cost some money...... call it the harley tax ,,, call it twiddling call it what you like ,,,NUMBER 1 without a dyno and a way to custom map the EFI to the mods its prolly not gonna run right on the first shot .... I am not scolding the guy ,,,, just letting him know the reality of the situation ....NUMBER 2) Its going to take some experimentation to make his bike run ......You sound very up to speed on EFI and mods .......And find nothing wrong with your diagnosis. I think you are spot on. But i will say that he aint the first guy that ends up going back after mods for a little tweekin ,and he wont be the last,, NUMBER 3) and if you are a pro HD nut twister for a living i assure you that all your tune jobs aint perfect on the first shot out of the service bay .... NUMBER 4) My dealer told me right up front ,,, you are best served with EFI to just ride it stock ..... because when you start down the engine mod road ,,,, there will be some frusteration on both ends of the deal as well as money spent, you were not counting on,,,,,canned maps will only get you so far ,,, when you choose to go with a botique of after market pipes and mods .... Just be glad you dont have to take it up and actually test fly it ,,,,,a little spit on a EFI is alot less stress than having to shut down the left engine on the first test flight and bring it back on one with the fresh overhaul caged and feathered .........From what it sounds ,,, he lives in a place with winter. IF the dealer doesnt have a dyno ... and cant really do a good job of test riding ,,, you are correct its a punt .....and this one didnt go between the goal posts..... I am in michigan......Getting out to ride isnt that easy in the winter ,,, but i did get to do a little polar bear ride today ......we had a good thaw and some rain ,,, and temps in the high 30s today .......So the 2006 riding season has gotten under way ...... i rode last new years day as well ......rat
NUMBER 1) without a dyno and a way to complete the job they shouldn't be taking money for installing parts in the first place!
NUMBER 2) how is it that a company that has 100's of thousands of builds in their collective background (especially ones with their own parts), has to "experiment" to get it right? How many more do you figure they need to do before they get a feel for the tendencies of certain parts, cams, pipes, etc.??
NUMBER 3) wrong! none of our work, whether it be marine race engines, bikes, or whatever leaves the place until it's right. This guy couldn't keep the thing on idle and the techs let him drive away apparently hoping the bike fairy would come and fix it overnight. They let it go KNOWING it wasn't even close.
NUMBER 4) this is the one that let's me rest my case! The only reason that anyone from a Harley dealership would make that suggestion for an EFI bike over a carbed is BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO TUNE THEM. It has nothing to do with EFI, the bike, the rider, boxers or jockeys, or anything else. It is the simple case of a manufacturer of motorcycles not knowing, or wanting to know, how to adjust their own machines. They sure do like pushing the performance parts, it's big business. But a multimillion dollar company won't give the techs the training or the tools to make it actually run correctly. Pathetic! They would rather drop in a canned map for $150 that takes 5 minutes and no materials. Who cares if it doesn't work! After all, you got your rev limiter raised! Whoeeeee!
Now ratt, I'm glad you got some miles in 2006 already. Have a long and safe riding season.
All the best!
G
grock, you da man!! correct on all accounts.
eagle3,
As I live in MS, I'm just curious what dealership you got the bike from?? And where you're located? I may be able to point you to a good tuning dealer or shop!!
As I live in MS, I'm just curious what dealership you got the bike from?? And where you're located? I may be able to point you to a good tuning dealer or shop!!
Find a good dyno tuner
You need to find a good dyno tuner. Many dealers only have the capacity to work with canned maps. The canned maps are just that, canned. They generally work only with the specific components they are designed to work with. One little change to pipes, air cleaner, cam, etc and they don't work any more. The dealers should at least know THAT.
Now that you are outside the realm of canned maps, you will need to find someone that can tune your bike with a SERT (race tuner online price about $370) or Power Commander. I prefer the SERT myself, but to each his own on that one.
One other less expensive choice IF you are going to leave it alone now that you have pipes and an air cleaner and are not planning future mods is to get a DFO, or TCI. These are fuel adder devices that have many reports of easy tuning and good results.
David
You need to find a good dyno tuner. Many dealers only have the capacity to work with canned maps. The canned maps are just that, canned. They generally work only with the specific components they are designed to work with. One little change to pipes, air cleaner, cam, etc and they don't work any more. The dealers should at least know THAT.
Now that you are outside the realm of canned maps, you will need to find someone that can tune your bike with a SERT (race tuner online price about $370) or Power Commander. I prefer the SERT myself, but to each his own on that one.
One other less expensive choice IF you are going to leave it alone now that you have pipes and an air cleaner and are not planning future mods is to get a DFO, or TCI. These are fuel adder devices that have many reports of easy tuning and good results.
David
GRock...I like the way you put it out there. No BS!
When it comes time for me to do my build and get it tuned, I will be seeking you out. it will be an overnighter for me, as I live in central NH, but I want to do business with someone like you.
Keep up the good work.
YB
When it comes time for me to do my build and get it tuned, I will be seeking you out. it will be an overnighter for me, as I live in central NH, but I want to do business with someone like you.
Keep up the good work.
YB
Dave,BaggerDave said:You need to find a good dyno tuner. Many dealers only have the capacity to work with canned maps. The canned maps are just that, canned. They generally work only with the specific components they are designed to work with. One little change to pipes, air cleaner, cam, etc and they don't work any more. The dealers should at least know THAT.
Now that you are outside the realm of canned maps, you will need to find someone that can tune your bike with a SERT (race tuner online price about $370) or Power Commander. I prefer the SERT myself, but to each his own on that one.
One other less expensive choice IF you are going to leave it alone now that you have pipes and an air cleaner and are not planning future mods is to get a DFO, or TCI. These are fuel adder devices that have many reports of easy tuning and good results.
David
You are correct that a good tuner is in order.
I will only add that even if your componants are the exact same as called out for a canned map, you would still need a tune.
Just the injectors alone (even though they are the same part#) could give you different results just based on manufacturing tolerences.
There are many variables that would give a different result when building a map and then trying to apply that map to another bike.
Maybe someone with more understanding of fuel management could explain further.
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