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72FX/04Ultra
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598 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If I read the comments made by people that own SERT's here on the forum, it appears that many of you suggest that a person cannot use the supplied calibrations "as is". Its seems that additional tuning is always required.

My question is this; If I have the same engine and parts/equipment as specified for a specfic (canned/provided) SERT calibration file, hasn't that file already been optimized for that configuration by MOCO? How much more (horespower. fuel economy, etc...) is to be gained by spending several hundred dollars more on dyno time?

I do understand why someone would have to tune a canned calibration file if they do not have the same parts and configuration specified for a specific calibration file. But do you really need to re-tune a calibration file that already matches your bike's configuration for which a file already exists?
 

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Average Dude
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Because the moco has to be epa friendly. You are going to get a canned map that is lean.
 

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fauskar said:
If I read the comments made by people that own SERT's here on the forum, it appears that many of you suggest that a person cannot use the supplied calibrations "as is". Its seems that additional tuning is always required.

My question is this; If I have the same engine and parts/equipment as specified for a specfic (canned/provided) SERT calibration file, hasn't that file already been optimized for that configuration by MOCO? How much more (horespower. fuel economy, etc...) is to be gained by spending several hundred dollars more on dyno time?

I do understand why someone would have to tune a canned calibration file if they do not have the same parts and configuration specified for a specific calibration file. But do you really need to re-tune a calibration file that already matches your bike's configuration for which a file already exists?
Although the engines are the same and configured the same, they are not the same. There can be a considerable amount of difference between "identical" engines. Consider that the combustion chamber can vary from 84cc to 90cc. The deck height, ring gap, piston fit, valve contact area and so on also varies from engine to engine. An engine that has 84cc chambers, 0 deck height, optimal ring gap and valve contact area will tune different than a engine with 90cc chambers, -.020" deck height etc... Basically, a stock engine with a few bolt on performance items can vary enough from engine to engine that fine tuning is always preferred over a "canned" map. IMO
 

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So, I'm curious...Is the standard download that you would get at the dealership for a stage 1, the same as the SERT calibration #1 (1450cc, air filter and SE mufflers)?

If so, are there any areas of the map that I should increase or decrease right off the bat to make it better (I don't have a dyno guy anywhere near me)...or do I just have to do the "seat of my pants" dyno until I can make it to a real dyno (this would be done by listening for any snaps, crackles, or pops, and noting at what RPM they occur)?

I currently just have the unmodified calibration #1 SERT Map on my 05 FXDi with a big sucker and Khrome Werks HP+ mufflers. Unfortunately, there's 2 feet of snow on the ground at my house, so it won't be until late March before I get to road test it.

Thanks!
 

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72FX/04Ultra
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598 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Given my current level of EFI-101 knowledge and lack of personal SERT experience, my question really comes down to this: "can or will I cause damage to my engine if I use a canned SERT calibration file that matches my configuration without any additional tuning?"

Per YankeeBob, "...canned map ... lean." Is the canned calibration so lean as to cause engine damage if not modified, provided your configuration matches the one for that calibration?

Springer; You are correct that there's variation between identical configurations because of manufacturing process variations. And that tuning will get you closer to the optimal point. And that optimal point varies from bike to bike.

Still, I would like to believe a specific calibration file and configuration developed by the MOCO has been tested across several bikes with the same configuration before it being "declared" as official. If this is true, wouldn't that calibration file then be an "average" setting that should work equally well "on average" across most bikes with the same configuration?

If a canned calibration file cannot be used unmodified, then the cost of the SERT goes up significantly. There's a considerable cost difference between doing your own "trial by error" tuning versus having it tuned on a dyno.

Before I pull the trigger and buy a SERT, I just want to make sure I understand the consequences of my actions.
 

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72FX/04Ultra
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598 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you all for the replies.

Let me see if I understand correctly, I should be able to use a canned map without any modifications and the engine should be okay (i.e. won't self destruct w/o tuning). If I wish to optimize the engine, it will probably benefit from further tuning (dyno).

Basically, the canned calibration files for a specific configuration are safe to use "as is" if someone wants too. Modification to the files isn't mandatory but people on this forum have found benefits from additional tuning.

The canned files safely put you in the ball park but tuning lets you hit the home run. I think that sums it up?
 

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Retired USN
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does have safe guards set up in it such as knocknsensors
Where would these knock sensors be, they are not on the bike, you saying they are built into the SERT?
 

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Premium Member
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451 Posts
bay13 said:
Where would these knock sensors be, they are not on the bike, you saying they are built into the SERT?
Current ESPFI Components-
The following is a list of the major components of Harley-Davidson’s current ESPFI system. It is important to have an understanding of what these components do before learning how the ESPFI system functions. Refer to the appropriate Harley-Davidson Service Manual for the vehicle you are working on for additional information on component design and function and for the physical location and testing procedures for each individual component.......

Ion Sensing System – this system uses ion-sensing technology to detect detonation or engine misfire in either the front or rear cylinder by monitoring the electrical energy at the spark plug following every timed spark. If an abnormal level of energy is detected across 2 or 3 spark firings the ECM responds by retarding spark timing in the problem cylinder as needed to eliminate it.

:cheers:
 

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Average Dude
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6,263 Posts
fauskar said:
Thank you all for the replies.

Let me see if I understand correctly, I should be able to use a canned map without any modifications and the engine should be okay (i.e. won't self destruct w/o tuning). If I wish to optimize the engine, it will probably benefit from further tuning (dyno).

Basically, the canned calibration files for a specific configuration are safe to use "as is" if someone wants too. Modification to the files isn't mandatory but people on this forum have found benefits from additional tuning.

The canned files safely put you in the ball park but tuning lets you hit the home run. I think that sums it up?
YEP.........
 

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Retired USN
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61 Posts
Current ESPFI Components-
The following is a list of the major components of Harley-Davidson’s current ESPFI system. It is important to have an understanding of what these components do before learning how the ESPFI system functions. Refer to the appropriate Harley-Davidson Service Manual for the vehicle you are working on for additional information on component design and function and for the physical location and testing procedures for each individual component.......

Ion Sensing System – this system uses ion-sensing technology to detect detonation or engine misfire in either the front or rear cylinder by monitoring the electrical energy at the spark plug following every timed spark. If an abnormal level of energy is detected across 2 or 3 spark firings the ECM responds by retarding spark timing in the problem cylinder as needed to eliminate it.
Thanks for the information. Can't find ESPFI mentioned anywhere in the manuals. Electricial or the service. Can you give me some more reference material?
 

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Premium Member
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bay13 said:
Thanks for the information. Can't find ESPFI mentioned anywhere in the manuals. Electricial or the service. Can you give me some more reference material?
bay13:

The above was quoted from the SERT Operations Manual. If you purchase the SERT, or at least the Software CD, the included documentation will enhance your understanding of how the Harley ESPFI System operates.

My '05 Service Manual deals with components. It also tells me:
See the 2005 Electrical Diagnostic Manual (Part No. 99497-05) for all SYSTEM DIAGNOSIS and ELECTRICAL TROUBLESHOOTING information.
What I recommend is you purchase the latest SERT software CD (~$20.00) which includes a 131 page SERT Manual plus an additional 50-60 pages each in the Tuning Mode and Data Mode Help files.

Definitely a "reference material" challenge if your up to it.

:cheers:
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I did about SERT canned maps:
When my bike had the basic 95" stage 1 (stock cams), I used the SERT map for ST1 with 203 cams, the performance improved, and pinging under acceleration stopped.
When I later installed SE performance heads, and SE211 cams, I used the map for 257 cams and SE heads, and again performance was awesome.
My intent was to try to overcome the factory lean settings plugged into the SERT maps, and I think I was successful.
The only other thing I could have done is to let someone flogg the bike mercilessly on a dyno, and I'm not ready to do that yet ($$$).
 

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SEDELUXE05 and WVRDKING
Thanks for the inputs. I'm a Dealer Volvo Technician, so If I can get my hands on the material I can usually figure things out. The manuals are very helpful, will look into getting the CD, thanks.
 

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I think second guessing the maps turned out good, actually. Thanks for your input SEDELUX. I pulled the plugs after 300 mi, and they're a nice light brown. Just how (I think) they should be.
I think with the lean settings that are plugged into the maps, using a map that matches my heads & pistons took out the timing issue.
The 257 cams have just slightly more duration than the 211s, so I think just a little more fuel was what they needed.
I'm looking around for a dyno tuner now, and we'll see how close I am.
I would worry if I pulled the plugs and they were black.
 

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Wait

I think I'll wait a year or two before I start adjusting the ECM on my new 06Dyna. By that time I'll be ready for a change. Besides, with all the advances in metal and heat transfer, running lean is not bad. My new oil cooler compensates for the hotter piston.
 
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