Can this 95" build be saved?

2601 Views 25 Replies 15 Participants Last post by Seahag, Jan 4, 2006

prophet

Discussion Starter · Jan 2, 2006

I have a 06 Ultra with a 95" set-up; flat top pistons, SE performance heads, Kuryakyn Hi five breather, Rinehart true duals and the infamous the dealer-recommended SE257 cams. The PC 3USB was used to tune the EFI with the stage 2 flash. I shouldn't have listened to the "stealer". I went into the PC3 the other day cuz it seemed like like it could run better and noticed that he used the stock map for the 2002 touring bike set-up including the +4 ignition advances in the higer throttle% ranges.

Anyways, my Hp is 91 and my torque 90 ft/lbs. The bike was dyno tuned so these numbers aren't theoretical. The Torque is weak until about 3200 RPM's then the bike pulls ok when it hits the powerband and stays above 82 Ft/Lbs until 5400RPM's. At 65 mph even in 4th gear it's fairly weak although once I hit 3200 it'll pull through 100 mph and still have room in 4th, although it's not where most of us ride our dressers.

The 257 may be the cam for the 103" but I'm afraid it ain't the one for a 95".

Any suggestions to correct my cam faux paux would be appreciated.

(Once again, not to be irritating, but let's talk true dyno numbers not, "my bike is faster than Jim Bobs because I walk away from him at 60 mph or whatever.")

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springer-

· #2 · Jan 2, 2006 (Edited)

prophet said:
I have a 06 Ultra with a 95" set-up; flat top pistons, SE performance heads, Kuryakyn Hi five breather, Rinehart true duals and the infamous the dealer-recommended SE257 cams. The PC 3USB was used to tune the EFI with the stage 2 flash. I shouldn't have listened to the "stealer". I went into the PC3 the other day cuz it seemed like like it could run better and noticed that he used the stock map for the 2002 touring bike set-up including the +4 ignition advances in the higer throttle% ranges.

Anyways, my Hp is 91 and my torque 90 ft/lbs. The bike was dyno tuned so these numbers aren't theoretical. The Torque is weak until about 3200 RPM's then the bike pulls ok when it hits the powerband and stays above 82 Ft/Lbs until 5400RPM's. At 65 mph even in 4th gear it's fairly weak although once I hit 3200 it'll pull through 100 mph and still have room in 4th, although it's not where most of us ride our dressers.

The 257 may be the cam for the 103" but I'm afraid it ain't the one for a 95".

Any suggestions to correct my cam faux paux would be appreciated.

(Once again, not to be irritating, but let's talk true dyno numbers not, "my bike is faster than Jim Bobs because I walk away from him at 60 mph or whatever.")

The 257 cams can perform very well in a 95". I suspect your tuning more than anything. I prefer the SERT but someone familiar with the PCIII should be able to do much better. You stock heads could of been made to perform at least as good as the SE perf heads but I don't think that is where your problem is. I'd find a new tuner and go with what they suggest, SERT or PC.

Here is an example of a 95" with 257's

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GRock

· #3 · Jan 2, 2006

I think I'll write a song this year entitled: "It's in the Tuning".

First, the 257 on an Ultra with Rineharts AND SE Performance heads is not going to get you the TQ that you need for a big cruiser. But, unfortunately, the option for a TQ cam from the dealer leaves you with the very mild 203 / 204 choice. And you are right, the 257 really shows it's stuff with over 100 cubes, although we have done a couple of 95's with good pipes and heads that perfrom pretty nicely in the mid to upper ranges. You are not running enough compression for that cam, you are not running an exhaust that is going to get you low end numbers and changing out to the SE heads was, no doubt, done to get your compression up, although not up enough to really allow this cam to bite on a big bike. Just for your info, you probably would have been better off to mill the stock heads to get the correct compression as we are getting reports from around the country that the 06 heads are pretty fine pieces of work right from the MOCO. Now having said all of that, you have the dyno but you were not dyno tuned. Sounds like the dealer simply took the easy way out and dropped in a canned map (the wrong one no less) and sent you on your way. Imagine that!

But even with the combo you have you have more power sitting on the table, you just need someone that knows how to find it. 90 hp AND tq is not correct for that build. IT'S IN THE TUNING!

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prophet

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jan 2, 2006 (Edited)

What if a guy went with the smaller 2" baffle from rinehart, then had the bike properly tuned. BUB claims (with dyno chart to back it) on their site that this will move the torque band back 4-500 RPMs with about 6-8 extra ft/lbs at 2500 RPMS, at the sacrifice of a couple peak ft/lbs and 4-5 HP.

Incidentally, the reason I didn't have the head work done aftermarket on the stock heads is the dealer wouldn't warranty me. With this build I get to have him at least warranty me if there's a problem.

ToddM

· #5 · Jan 3, 2006 (Edited)

Going with a smaller baffle will most likely make your problem worse. 2-1 pipes will eliminate that dead spot in the torque curve below 3200. I had the same problem with my bike when I was running 2-2 pipes. Feels like a completely different bike now, pulling strong from idle to about 5500 rpm before the curve starts dropping. If you want 2-2 pipes, then go with the Python III or Bartels systems. They are about the only 2 duals that even come close to a 2-1 system. As the others said, tuning will help, too. But, it won't make as big a difference as the exhaust will.

compressor#v

· #6 · Jan 3, 2006

Prophet, absolutely your build can be saved. With the heads and pistons you have, a set of S&S .570G cams are tailor made, and will alleviate any concerns with the cam chains etc. Some will disagree, but the SE Race Tuner in competent hands will be better than the PC. Why install an additional device to "fool" your ECM.

hogg831

· #7 · Jan 3, 2006

compressor#v said:
Some will disagree, but the SE Race Tuner in competent hands will be better than the PC. Why install an additional device to "fool" your ECM.

I don't think anyone will disagree that in competent hands the SE has more tuning points.

But some will ask the question, "Why buy another device that locks my choice when I sell or trade up?".

Everything at some point will have trade-offs.

fourstar

· #8 · Jan 3, 2006

hogg831 said:
But some will ask the question, "Why buy another device that locks my choice when I sell or trade up?".

This is not really a valid concern, IMHO. Although I see the point made frequently, it doesn't make sense. The same people who say this don't hesitate to put thousands of $$ worth of chrome doo dads on their bikes that they sell for cents on the dollar when they move on or trade up. The SERT is much more accurate and versatile than most other tuning aids and should have the same relative value to a future buyer as, say a $400 exhaust system, or chrome front-end or some other expensive item that you can't take with you.

hogg831

· #9 · Jan 3, 2006

fourstar,
It's all about the individual, both you and compressor make good points. The $$$ goodies don't add "real" value as I am sure you know. There are mods to all bikes that become part of the whole.

The accuracy and versatility of the SERT is no better than the hand tuning it. IMO, the same applies to the PCIII (and like products) and to a MUCH lesser extent the DFO/TFI.

It s nice to see the info put out there, I don't agree with pushing one over the other. They all have their place in what the individual is trying to acheive.

csoday

· #10 · Jan 3, 2006

You are right 4star.Try selling the build he has after pulling the PCIII off and see how many takers you get.

prophet

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jan 3, 2006

Not to be irritatiing, but can we can get back to my original question about the build? No one's interested in a peeing contest between the SERT and the PC 3.
The reason I went with the PC 3 is as follows: Of the 5 dealers within 80 miles of me, one won't touch a bike if it doesn't have all HD parts (including the exhaust. Because he doesn't have a dyno), the second prefers not to mess with it if it ain't all HD, another builds the engine and send it to a Speed Shop (dyno's ricers and hds...sells ricers only)to tune the PC3 because he doesn't have his own dyno, the other claims he doesn't have a SERT map for the rineharts so he can't do it and the last choice is the one who built it. He's an HD dealer who preferred the PC because of its flexibility at this point. Flexibility meaning, "if there's a warranty issue, the onboard ECU only shows a stage 2 flash, and nothing else. The PC can be pulled off." He must be thinking about if the MOCO comes a calling...of course he also didn't spend any time with it on his own dyno and used a stock map (M807-001) for a 2002 stock bike.
My 95" is running real rich I suspect, due to the plugs and the nice black smoke that comes out when I crack the throttle.

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csoday

· #12 · Jan 3, 2006 (Edited)

Prophet,
If no one is interested in a pissing contest, why did you continue it.You have a tuning issue as others have said and evidently the tuner you are using doesn't understand the PCIII either if it's running that rich.

hogg831

· #13 · Jan 3, 2006

csoday said:
Prophet,
If no one is interested in a pissing contest, why did you continue it.

......................

Toyman

· #14 · Jan 3, 2006

Prophet, as compressor stated earlier the S&S 570's are the proven cams for your setup, but from what i read you are being limited to a SE cam by the dealer. I made the same 257 mistake a couple years ago on a Fatboy! Have the dealer swap out the 257's for a set of 211's and get it tuned correctly. You will be much happier!
Mike

prophet

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jan 3, 2006

csoday said:
Prophet,
If no one is interested in a pissing contest, why did you continue it.You have a tuning issue as others have said and evidently the tuner you are using doesn't understand the PCIII either if it's running that rich.

Not continuing the pee stream, just stating the facts...the build, how I made the mistake I did, the reason for the choice I made, all so those who have knowledge and previous experience can give help.

Evidently, just because a guy has a dyno doesn't mean he can tune a PC or SERT...I agree. Fortunately he only charged me $350 to build the motor on a new bike and $150 for the stage 2 flash...I guess I shouldn't be complaining, he didn't charge extra to tune the PC3...maybe I should have offered?

Anyways, thanks to all who have given the valuable and pertinent advice I asked for.

prophet

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jan 3, 2006

The closest thing on the PC website is a Softail map with a 211 cam. I have a request posted in the EFI Map forum. Thanks.

genoway

· #17 · Jan 3, 2006 (Edited)

hdmaps.com does have some SERT 2006 maps with Rineharts, but not with your cam.

I think your best choice is the "Speed Shop (dyno's ricers and hds...sells ricers only)to tune the PC3".

Oh, and since you would no longer be restricted to HD parts get the Wood's TW-5G cam that is made for those heads and perfect for a bagger.

compressor#v

· #18 · Jan 4, 2006

Prophet, if warranty concerns dictate your decisions at this time I clearly understand. As for tuning I also understand the lack of competent tuners in an area, which is why I went from Mich. to Minn. to get mine porperly tuned. Whichever cam you decide on, tuning, tuning and tuning will make or break your build. I see your in Illinois. Hals H-D in New Berlin Wis. (suburb of Milwaukee) is said to have a very good tuner. May be worth the trip to get all you can out of your build. Good Luck.

hotbikes

· #19 · Jan 4, 2006

Prophet,
If you want to stay HD I would go With the 211's and make sure you've got Cometic .030hg's. It makes a pretty good build. I had mine tuned by Doug Lofgren at World Class Tuning in Mn. I've also heard good things about Hals. Doug tuned mine by doing an online reprogram (not HD). It runs perfectly. He knows what he is doing. :bowdwn:

prophet

Discussion Starter · #20 · Jan 4, 2006

That 's good advice if I can pull it off. Does anybody have a dyno print-out using the set-up I have with the 211 cam and/or the cometic gasket. It would be appreciated.

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