[Steel_Tech]

Has anyone used the new cam plate that came out this year for earlier twin cams? This is the model people have been using for a while: http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/...cale=en_US&bmUID=1314670812196&bmLocale=en_US

This is the new item for this year: http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/...cale=en_US&bmUID=1314670812227&bmLocale=en_US

I just wanted to know opinions/thoughts. Think there would be any problems upping the oil pressure by that much? Possibly issues with lifters not bleeding down? I wouldn't doubt that there are some aftermarket suits pushing more than that. It also looks like it has the scavenging to get it back to the tank. I was wondering if they may be gone to thin on the walls of the pump itself to make room for a bigger gear set. I don't want an oil pump hand grenade. I was planning on using the SE one that has been around for a while, but now they introduce a new toy for only 70 more clams. Damn them and their new carrots to dangle in front of me!

Steel

 

[Don Dorfman]

It is a hybrid morph that allows the use of the old chain drive cam and the new roller chain in front and the silent morse chain in the rear. Why???

Just get the new 07up OEM parts and a "conversion cam" offered by many, assuming your pump plate or cam are bad or are being changed for a reason.

If your setup is fine don't bother, the only plus to this setup IMHO is the addition of better tensioners that are not trouble free for the duration but much better service life than the original tensioners.

 

[justbill301]

It is a hybrid morph that allows the use of the old chain drive cam and the new roller chain in front and the silent morse chain in the rear. Why???

Just get the new 07up OEM parts and a "conversion cam" offered by many, assuming your pump plate or cam are bad or are being changed for a reason.

If your setup is fine don't bother, the only plus to this setup IMHO is the addition of better tensioners that are not trouble free for the duration but much better service life than the original tensioners.

which is best for my 06 88 sg ? I want to do some engine upgrades this winter. Need to nail down a plan, I want to improve cams, probably increase bore and cr.... If I can decide on the right combination, even some head work. My 88 has 14k and runs great, just needs more git up...

 

[Don Dorfman]

95", 37N cam, mild porting with 1.9" intake valve, new guides etc., OEM 07 up camplate, chains and pump.
Done many, I am close to you.

 

[justbill301]

very cool.... care to assist me in a build ?

 

[Steel_Tech]

Well...that doesn't really answer the initial question. First, I am using a cam that cannot go into one of the cam plate adaptations. Pretty much what your are saying is use an 07 camplate, but use a specialized cam that can only fit in an older set of cases and a new style camplate. Since I am not using one of the cams from those companies...I am looking at other options. I am not doing gear drive because of tolerances. I am probably going to do the screaming eagle one for many reasons. I am just now considering one or the other at this point.

Steel

 

[Dyna Ryda]

I have the new style, the orange one. It works great and is quiet. I wouldn't use the new oem plate, it really limits your cam selection. Although I have not read about any harley issue's, I have seen first hand what happens to plain bearings when things are not set up perfect or a metal shaving gets in the oil. The cams will eat groves in it. It was on a j a p bike, same style set up though.

 

[95280]

been using the new one all summer, so far so good. shop around you can find them priced reduced, I paid $363 shipped to the door from house of harley.

what is the cost of the 07 plate, chains , oil pump, new cam bolts?

 

[Steel_Tech]

I don't know if you can based it on color. The Screaming Eagle one that had up till now use to be orange. Then they introduced this new one this year (if I'm not mistaken at about the same time as the new model year release). It looks like the changed the color of the orange one to black. Then they gave that color to the -11 part number one that just came out. It is probably the same cam plate for both kits...one just comes with an oil pump with even more flow than the old SE model.

I just didn't know if there would be any pros or cons to running the old or new one. I know the racing mentality is to clear the oil out of the engine as fast as you get it in. You of course need oil in the engine for it to run. On the other hand, the more you have in the more resistance you have and the more power the oil robs from your engine. Once you get into the upper echelon of engine building they start ceramic coating the inside of cases so the oil will slide down and return to the pump faster. I'm sure harley has done some R&D on the new pump...I just don't know about how well it will do in the long term. Not all of us can rebuild their engine every year.

Steel

 

[Don Dorfman]

Rebuild every year :redrolf:
The TC88 is known to go in excess of 50k and many reach 100k with good service and occasional tensioner replacement. Stock, no better oil pump. Modified same story.
S&S 124 kit many years ago recommended stock oil pump and stock HD cam plate, gear drive cams before they came out with their own pump and plate. Never any oil related failures with the early 124"
If you have money to burn or are changing the oil pump due to wear or failure go for it. the plates are similar, orange is for roller or ball cam bearings and the black is for journal bearing cams. Just an anodizing color that's all.

 

[Nitram_b4]

I am running the upgrade kit (plate and pump) in an 88 with 204 cams.
I have 53,000 on the motor and 5,000 on the new setup, no problems

 

[DURWOOD]

Rebuild every year :redrolf:
The TC88 is known to go in excess of 50k and many reach 100k with good service and occasional tensioner replacement. Stock, no better oil pump. Modified same story.
S&S 124 kit many years ago recommended stock oil pump and stock HD cam plate, gear drive cams before they came out with their own pump and plate. Never any oil related failures with the early 124"
If you have money to burn or are changing the oil pump due to wear or failure go for it. the plates are similar, orange is for roller or ball cam bearings and the black is for journal bearing cams. Just an anodizing color that's all.

@gree:
I just put a stator in a 2004 E-Glide classic tonight that has 98,000 miles on it with only tensioners replaced a few thousand miles ago.
Has had NOTHING else done to the engine since new.
If it weren't for the odometer I would have never guessed it had that many miles.

 

[Dyna Ryda]

sorry steel, just checked the part number on mine, it's the -08 version not the newest one. It is orange though. And it seems to work great. My bike see's 6000 rpm on a daily basis, no problems with oil pressure or extra noise.
I think you guys misunderstood him when he said he didn't want to rebuild every year. He is just looking for reliable parts reference so that problems don't come up and force him to rebuild. Such as the problem with losing oil pressure on the se plate. And yes, twin cams can last forever. I met a guy in San Fran with 178,000 on his 02 dyna, and my dad has about 100k on his 99 dyna.

 

[Steel_Tech]

dyna got what I was saying. I realize that a stock harley has pretty much been a 100k mileage motor ever since they came out with the evos. The issue of course is where you draw the lines when you start doing performance. I am pretty cautious when upgrading as I have seen many new ventures from all kinds of companies go south. Of course, this change looks like no more than a bigger oil pump. That being said, the oil pumps on the twin cams have not exactly proven themselves bullet proof. There has been a fair share of pumps that came out before 50k showing significant galling to the point where they need replacement. Also some guys have installed pumps and found them to explode after only a few thousand miles. My guess would be they didn't install it properly.

I just wanted to bring to light that there was a change. They probably made the new pump for their own growing displacements, like the 103s available on most models now...or the 120r. Then they just bundled it with the old SE cam plate to make a new kit. One statement that seemed a little funny though was how the new pump supposedly "reduces operating temperature of bearings to improve bearing life." With 23% more supply and 50% more scavenge over stock...I could believe it.

I know its not a big deal like the new 120r for 06 and earlier bikes....but us broke bastards who still gotta tweak what we got need to win are battles where we can. I won't lie...primary reason for me getting this plate is to get rid of the old tensioners. Its not that I mind going down and replacing tensioners every 30k miles. I would do that gladly...I love putting wrench in hand every so often. The problem is they don't always wait for a specific time to fail and could fail before 30k...and that is something I don't want to risk. I haven't heard of the new hydraulic setups failing...especially before 30k. I have reviewed the other options (gear drive, andrews/woods kit) and they do not either fit the cam I am going with or fit the desired build outcome. If you are going with and Andrews cam...then hell yeah use their kit. I am doing S&S.

All of my personal reasons aside for choosing SE parts...it looks like the extra oil could only help. I was just wondering if anyone saw a possible problem with it. It did just come out, so it of course doesn't have a lot of road data to support any claims like the -08 one does. So it is just another item I am on the fence with. Go with the one that has proven good in many other builds, or try something new?

Back to Twin Cams going the distance...I plan on making my engine go 100k. That is why I am being VERY picky about what parts go in it. After I do 100k, I am going to tear the engine completely apart, replace every gasket and bearing surface, hone my cylinders to an +5 or +10 depending on how far they are, drop in a set of cranks and make it a virtually new 103...then do another 100k. I bought the HD because it is so easy to work on...and keep on the road. It would be easier if I convert to carb just because I can cut out some of the electronics...but I stick with the Delphi for now. Getting off topic a bit, but I don't doubt the HD longevity...I am planning on it.

Steel

 

[YankeeBob]

2004 98" Twin Cam, 615 lift gear drive cams. Installed a Latus spring in my stock camplate. Works just fine.

 

[justbill301]

Lots of questions, but fewer than yesterday !

95", 37N cam, mild porting with 1.9" intake valve, new guides etc., OEM 07 up camplate, chains and pump.
Done many, I am close to you.

NW.... I've recently logged many hours reading forums and searching the interweb regarding upgrades to my 06 tc88.
First, I wanted to learn about the 'known' tensioner issue. I've read so many posts and articles. It looks to me that there are many cases of good mileage and tolerable wear on these oe spring loaded tensioners. That being said, some say that they can go to pieces, causing severe damage in only a few thousand miles. My sg has 15k now and runs great. I do want to open it up and get a look in there this winter. My current thinking is using the 07 (se?) plate you mention. I was thinking gears, but I have a few thoughts on that set up... 1, for the $, doesn't get you much hp ( 3-5 ? ), and 2- with the possible runout issue, I would worry about grinding up the gears too, as I would have some else set that up. Seems to me that the 07-up plate is reliable with proper maintenance . I have a decent little shop, lots of time, and want to do my own work.
I've also looked at many cams. Looks to me that alot of the ones recommended for the touring 88 are very similar. One thing I do know is that I'm not one to shift much beyond 4500. I'm careful not to lug it, and will shift down when needed. I ride alone for the most part, and we do a fair amount of mountain riding, as you know, here in WA. That being said, I notice that the 37's intake closes at 40, would I be better to find something around 30, since I don't ride high in the revs ? Currently it runs about 2900 at 75, usual freeway speed. I would guess, off hwy, I like to run between 2500 and 3500. One more question on cams... am I correct in that the inner bearing on my 06 is a smaller Dia than the 07-up ? Does my 06 use the torrington bearing OE ? If it is a smaller Dia, then can I assume that a cam for my 06 has 2 different bearing Dia ? One size for the case, and a larger one out front, in the plate ? What are your feelings on the increased pressure 'baisley' type spring ? I think I could go on, but that's enough for now.....

Thanx NW, and anyone else who would care to chime in, I'm learning as fast as I can !

 

[justbill301]

Also.....

Are there valve guide issues associated with the 06 heads ? Or is the idea just to change em while youre in there. What would mild porting be ... like in cc's so I can run it in the calculator....

 

[Birddog415]

just about 2 years ago I had my original cam chain tensioners going out as well as the hardface on the cams and lifters (lower end was making a bad squeak) so the low end needed to be gone over(at 50k miles btw)I took it to a really good indy shop . After he went into it , he informed me of the damage . He asked what I wanted done - stock parts replacement, upgrade to the hydraulic cam plate and new tensioners or what I had asked for if the specs were dead nuts ...a gear drive cam system. Luckily the runout was well under the outside tolerance of .003.. I got lucky that mine had only .001...so the gear drive was the way to go . No more tensioners. I can feel good solid throttle as soon as I hit it. The gear driven cams are not to increase any horsepower so much as take away some moving parts (springs, shoes,chains)that will again eventually wear out.The gearset goes in , done deal. He also actually lowered my intake lift a little with the new (s&s)cams (Feuling Lifters)as the ones that were in it , the previous owner had high lift race cams that were hard on mileage as well as other parts. Oil pump was good . The 3 choices were only a few hundred dollars apart in price so the geardrive was a no-brainer. Took him about a week and said it'll probably last as long as I own the bike as I do not get on it hard...just local and long distance riding. It does have a whine to it but I know its just the gears. I use Royal Purple 20w50 in everything .

 

[justbill301]

just about 2 years ago I had my original cam chain tensioners going out as well as the hardface on the cams and lifters (lower end was making a bad squeak) so the low end needed to be gone over(at 50k miles btw)I took it to a really good indy shop . After he went into it , he informed me of the damage . He asked what I wanted done - stock parts replacement, upgrade to the hydraulic cam plate and new tensioners or what I had asked for if the specs were dead nuts ...a gear drive cam system. Luckily the runout was well under the outside tolerance of .003.. I got lucky that mine had only .001...so the gear drive was the way to go . No more tensioners. I can feel good solid throttle as soon as I hit it. The gear driven cams are not to increase any horsepower so much as take away some moving parts (springs, shoes,chains)that will again eventually wear out.The gearset goes in , done deal. He also actually lowered my intake lift a little with the new (s&s)cams (Feuling Lifters)as the ones that were in it , the previous owner had high lift race cams that were hard on mileage as well as other parts. Oil pump was good . The 3 choices were only a few hundred dollars apart in price so the geardrive was a no-brainer. Took him about a week and said it'll probably last as long as I own the bike as I do not get on it hard...just local and long distance riding. It does have a whine to it but I know its just the gears. I use Royal Purple 20w50 in everything .

That's great, you got the right mech sounds like. Gears must be more accurate, does it also equate to an hp gain in itself ? Also, did he upgrade the inner cam bearing ?

So far, 15k and all is well, but lookin to upgrade this winter.

 

[mfalba]

Has anyone used the new cam plate that came out this year for earlier twin cams? This is the model people have been using for a while: http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/...cale=en_US&bmUID=1314670812196&bmLocale=en_US

This is the new item for this year: http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/...cale=en_US&bmUID=1314670812227&bmLocale=en_US

I just wanted to know opinions/thoughts. Think there would be any problems upping the oil pressure by that much? Possibly issues with lifters not bleeding down? I wouldn't doubt that there are some aftermarket suits pushing more than that. It also looks like it has the scavenging to get it back to the tank. I was wondering if they may be gone to thin on the walls of the pump itself to make room for a bigger gear set. I don't want an oil pump hand grenade. I was planning on using the SE one that has been around for a while, but now they introduce a new toy for only 70 more clams. Damn them and their new carrots to dangle in front of me!

Steel

I use this set up on my 2002 Road King, and I think it's great.

I got the benefit of the hydraulic tensioners, the billet plate, and the high flow oil pump. Also, I didn't have to purchase new cams, just used my old 99-06 chain drives.

It's much less expensive, and much quieter than the gear drive set up I have on my Heritage, and honestly I can't tell a performance difference between the two.

The only down side is that there just isn't as big a selection of cams with the 99-06 chains as there is with the conversion cams or gear drive cams. Also you have to deal with pressing in the outer bearings, where as the conversion cams have done away with them.