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Screamin' Eagle
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Discussion Starter #1
I am pretty much settled on my build, less my cam choice. I am interested in some feedback as to a cam choice for the following build:

'04 FXDI
SE Aircleaner (installed)
V&H Short shots (installed)
SERT (installed - for current build)
To add the following:
95" jugs
SE perf. heads
SE cast pistons for 10:1 compression

This stays in the price range I am looking for and I want to do SE parts on this build. My question is with the SE heads allowing for higher lift, and the stock '07+ stage II build using the SE-255 cam, how would this work running on an '04 build with heads? I am looking for something that pulls in the low/mid for cruising, not a high RMP cam.

I am also contemplating the possibility of moving to hc pistons; though have been recommended to change tappets, lifters, etc. to accommodate over 10:1 compression; thus I am shying away form this currently.

Thanks for the feedback in advance. - E
 

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The 255 will give you more torque in the low rpm area but it suffers just like a EPA cam will else where in the power band. Your compression of 10:1 is a bit high for the 203 to run with out pinging. If your dead set on all SE parts look at the 251 cam...it has better characteristics then the other SE cam choices.

Who ever told you you needed different lifters with the HTTC pistons needs to go back to washing bikes....your stock lifters are fine.
 

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<<I am also contemplating the possibility of moving to hc pistons>>

<<If your dead set on all SE parts look at the 251 cam...it has better characteristics then the other SE cam choices.>>

use the se forged dome piston...it is made for the se p heads and with a .030hg will get compression to the right level with the se251 cam.

will run a heck of a lot better than the 203 with those heads and not ping like the 203 can at 10:1.
 

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Screamin' Eagle
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Discussion Starter #4
HDMD88 said:
Who ever told you you needed different lifters with the HTTC pistons needs to go back to washing bikes....your stock lifters are fine.
How high compression can I do without having to be concerned with further build kit? To clarify, I was told that I didn't "need" to to tappets, rocker arms, rods, and cylinder studs; though this would increase overall durability of the post-build engine. Now, if I could throw in hc forged pistons, hit 10.5:1, and go hotter on the cam, without the aforementioned cost impact, I'd be all over it.

I'm balancing final decisions on the right performance/ridability/durability... Any my wife made me promise that I didn't do this build myself; she doesn't want me to turn my (read "our") bike into my erector set <grin>.
 

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Roller rockers are needed with any cam over a .550 lift for valve train longevity. You can go with a 10.5:1 compression and as far as 10.8:1 with pump gas with a good tune without any pinging issues, key phrase here is a good tune...

No need to spend money on the S/E cylinder studs, I've run 130tq with the stock studs with no problems.

As SEDELUXE said a good pipe will make the build. I also agree with SEDELUXE.... if your not so stuck on the S/E products the TW6 (.510 lift...no roller rockers needed) with a good set of heads and 10.0 compression will surprise you.
 

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<<imo i dont think that with those heads at 10.5 are the best choice ping monster.>>

Totally depends on the cam. His original idea was se203 at 10:1 cr. That cam will be 196psi ccc with a cometic hg and will want to ping like crazy.

The se251 at 10.5:1 will be 195psi and will run strong with proper tuning.

<<Roller rockers are needed with any cam over a .550 lift for valve train longevity.>>

How do you define longevity?

I know several guys with se251 (.579) or Woods tw6hg (.590) that have 75,000-100,000 miles on their rides with stock rockers and no problems...yet.
 

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I run rollers myself so i know the benefits. I am just not sure what the longevity trade-off is for "lower" high lift cams like .575-590 lift.
 

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Explain to me what are the benifits that roller rockers have for you ? If your answer is they way they work then you should be able to look at your answer and apply it to people with lower lifts. Just because a bike will run without rollers doesn't mean it is running better or longer. I see the damage done quiet offten from not running rollers with .590 or .575 lift cams, I can see the damage just by looking into the intake port,....so please tell me what are the benies from roller rockers
 

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<<...so please tell me what are the benies from roller rockers>>

OK...not trying to get in an argument...trying to earn from the experts and get a sense of cost/benefit trade-off for lower lift situations (.590 and below).

Reduce valvetrain friction = increased power and valvetrain longevity.

The sweeping motion of a stock rocker across the valve stem creates side thrust loads. The higher the lift and/or more aggressive the lobe profile the greater this load is. This causes wear to the valve stem and guide. Rollers significantly reduce this effect.

I run a .650 lift cam with aggressive profile, try to get max power out of my build and rev it up to redline frequently. I also take the time to get rocker endplay and valvetrain geometry where it should be. So of course I use rollers.

I encourage the guys I do work for to spend the $350 for rollers but if they can't afford it and are running a se251 (for example) and are not the type of guys who run the s--t out of their rides...then we do without. I completely agree that the topend will wear out faster...I just don't know if it will be in their lifetime of owning the bike.
 

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Screamin' Eagle
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Discussion Starter #12
HDMD88 said:
If your dead set on all SE parts look at the 251 cam...it has better characteristics then the other SE cam choices.
I agree that the 251 looks like a good cam choice though with the MCR heads, I only have the option of doing something less that .575 on lift. The 251 is .579. Considering that my options are really the 255 or 253. The 253 appears to be shorter lift though longer duration than the 255. Which would ultimately yield better performance when running at 10:1?

[edit]Now that I have better read things, I see that the 255 is only available on '06 and later models, thus this is out[/edit]

thnx. - E
 

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The 251 will work with the heads your going to run, there should be at least a .040 margin past the .575 lift Harley claims, so another .004 is nothing to worry about.
 

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wildbillnc
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HDMD88 said: As SEDELUXE said a good pipe will make the build. I also agree with SEDELUXE.... if your not so stuck on the S/E products the TW6 (.510 lift...no roller rockers needed) with a good set of heads and 10.0 compression will surprise you.

I agrre with Doc @gree: @gree: @gree:
 

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Screamin' Eagle
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Discussion Starter #15
WILDBILLNC said:
HDMD88 said: As SEDELUXE said a good pipe will make the build. I also agree with SEDELUXE.... if your not so stuck on the S/E products the TW6 (.510 lift...no roller rockers needed) with a good set of heads and 10.0 compression will surprise you.
First on the pipes, I bought my bike with a set of V&H short shots. I hate the way 2 into 1 pipes look. I was considering upgrading to a set of the V&H big shots which are 2-1-2 pipes. Would this be worth, from a power perspective, the $600?

So, all have enlightened me about the Woods cams. I started reading about these last night. I ride 2-up most often. Would the 5G, 6 or 6G be a better choice? The 5G looks sweet with quite a bit of tq. I only do hi-revs while I'm on the bike (or the inadvertent, drop into 3rd at 50 for a pass to get a little burn-out <grin>).

I would also assume that if I do one of their cams, I might as well do the gear drive. Any pros/cons on this?

- E
 

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Iron Butt, SS2000
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Eric,

First I'll tell you I am enjoying your questions as they are similar to the ones I should have been asking when I made the mistake of allowing the dealership to make my choices (and do the work in this case, I should have researched a lot more to find a tech who is knowledgeable and meticulous) the first time I had my 04 Ultra tweaked up.

The advantages of gear drive are (as I understand it) not ever having to change the cam tensioners or worry about if yours are the few out there that wear much faster than others. Could get expensive if you don't catch them in time. Second is the gear keeps better control of the cam timing. Ever seen how a chain vibrates as it works? Well that adds a bit of varied cam timing. Disadvantages, initial cost and sometimes they are noisy especially if the guy who installs them does not check for crank run out and properly deal with that.

At any rate I am looking forward to seeing what you end up doing as well as seeing the dyno chart when finished. You must commit to that, I mean really, if you're gonna get all the help form the forum you just have to share the end result right?
 

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ericsenf said:
First on the pipes, I bought my bike with a set of V&H short shots. I hate the way 2 into 1 pipes look. I was considering upgrading to a set of the V&H big shots which are 2-1-2 pipes. Would this be worth, from a power perspective, the $600?

So, all have enlightened me about the Woods cams. I started reading about these last night. I ride 2-up most often. Would the 5G, 6 or 6G be a better choice? The 5G looks sweet with quite a bit of tq. I only do hi-revs while I'm on the bike (or the inadvertent, drop into 3rd at 50 for a pass to get a little burn-out <grin>).

I would also assume that if I do one of their cams, I might as well do the gear drive. Any pros/cons on this?

- E
Eric
Problem is the pipe. I have observed some of the touted pipes KILL power and torque (rinehart 2into2,Boomcans, Drags, Fishtails being the worst I've seen) and the shortshots are in there, the V&H longshots even with the powerchamber, ho hum not worth the change. There is actually nothing wrong with slip-ons 2 into 2 such as Cycle Shacks and the stock headpipes if you're dead set on no 2 into 1. When the power level "potential" goes up the pipe becomes critical to making the goal and no cams heads etc will comp that. The tune is right there too.
 

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I'm no big expert, but, my last ride was an 03 nighttrain. The build consisted of 95", V&H side shots, high compression (10.25) cast pistons, 42 mik carb, 203 cams and the race tuner. I was getting 94tq and 86hp with no ping. I was pretty happy with that. Rode it for 17,000 miles with no problems before I traded it for my 08 SG. Now, I'm working on getting that up to where the softtail was.
 

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Screamin' Eagle
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Discussion Starter #19
nw_guy4_fun said:
When the power level "potential" goes up the pipe becomes critical to making the goal and no cams heads etc will comp that. The tune is right there too.
I have decided on a 2-in-1 pipe. I'm planing on the V&H Pro Pipe. I wanted to do the Thunderheader though too many people locally are getting bothered for running these.

I quickly changed my 2-in-1 opinion and figured if I was sinking money into upgrades is would totally not make sense to not match performance exhaust with the build.

the short-shots I have are what was on the bike when I bought it, not something I've spent any money on.
 

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nw_guy4_fun said:
Eric
Problem is the pipe. I have observed some of the touted pipes KILL power and torque (rinehart 2into2,Boomcans, Drags, Fishtails being the worst I've seen) and the shortshots are in there, the V&H longshots even with the powerchamber, ho hum not worth the change. There is actually nothing wrong with slip-ons 2 into 2 such as Cycle Shacks and the stock headpipes if you're dead set on no 2 into 1. When the power level "potential" goes up the pipe becomes critical to making the goal and no cams heads etc will comp that. The tune is right there too.
Once again Nw_Guy answers with mega wisdom....I couldn't agree more!!
 
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