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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Still pondering a 95" build for an 05 injected Fatboy. I want a broad torque curve that pulls nice and hard 2000 - 5800 RPM range.

A lot were recommending the 37G for stock ported heads. But, I've stumbled onto some dirt cheap new SE Perf heads or SE HTCC (non-ported), both the latest 06 versions ready for compression releases. I could even swing a deal on the SE HTCC CNC Ported, but what I can tell that is for the 06 w/ 50mm Pro Throttle body.

Gave a sweetheart deal on a hotrod to an HD parts manager, so now he's going to get me some SE stuff below cost.

I want gear drive, so SE cams are out.

Going to use either Head-Quarters or Bishop Performance, live between them
so either is close to drive to. Leaning towards Bishop due to they have a dyno and have gotten some good recommendations to use them to SERT tune it in. I already have SERT for the bike.


So if you had a pick of these SE heads, close access to these two shops to do some porting, what cam and Piston choice would you go for a nice broad torque curve. Looks like the HD Forged Hi Comp pistons would land at 10.5, aftermarket flat top forged would be around 10.2 with the SE heads. The HTCC would be at 10.5 with SE HTCC forged.

Bishop has a nice package with the TW55G, but looks to be aimed at top end.

Is there a gear drive cam that would work with 10.5 comp and still have decent torque down around 2000 RPM, and rip up to about 5800? Looks like those SE heads come set up for up to .575 lift, probably with some porting would be pretty decent. Anybody try out the HQ575 yet? Would that work better the the SE Perf or HTCC heads? questions, questions, questions...


Thanks :beer:
 

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If you talk to Doug at Head Quarters, he'll tell you that 10.5:1 with the Hq 0039g's are unbeatable. I happen to have a set that I could let go real cheap. I opted to go with the new Red Shift 575 from Zipper's because I had to stay with the chain drives due to too much crank runout. With the gear drives you must have no more that 2 thousandths.
 

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Look at the dyno sheet in the link.....

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73524

Do you want something like that???

I don't think it gets much better than that for a 95" build..... and that is nothing more than a simple 37G build with great heads and a good tune.

So, I would stay with the 37G because it is a proven nice balance of torque through the rpm band. Then I would get the SE Performance heads and let a good porter "breathe" on'em and set them up for a CR of 10:1 max but better yet at 9.8 or 9.9:1. If you are not going to use nitrous or any other "adder" then use the SE cast flat tops. They are good. Then be careful on the pipe selection because that either makes or breaks the low end torque. The next thing that is a must for any decent build is to find a good tuner. The icing on the cake is to redo the gearing in the primary for a 3.37 ratio or if you have the coinage, go with a DD6 tranny which come close to the 3.37 plus gives you the OD 6th for long distance cruisin'. There is extra torque multiplication is those gear changes!

From what I've seen on the 95" HTCC heads and pistons, I would avoid that combination because of the shrouded piston top and the way they are doing the squish band. There are lots of them running around here that are perpetual ping machines, even with some of the best tuners trying to solve the problem. Now the 103" HTCC is a better design and not as prone to pinging like the 95". If you don't believe this, go to the parts counter and have them pull a set of 95" HTCC pistons and the heads and just look at it, then go talk to any reputable engine builder, like Bishop and ask them to compare that 95" HTCC design with using decked ported heads with the SE flat tops. You should get the same answer I got from the great local Indie builders. Of course if you ask the HD shop they'll say everything is just fine with it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks, Yeah that dyno sheet is exacly what I'm looking for. That thing looks like it has 90 lb ft torque @ 2000 rpm.

That helps me narrow it down to either ported stock heads or ported SE Perf heads.

With the SE Perf heads, with flat tops I'm thinking the comp would be around 10.2.

On Andrews site it looks like they steer you towards the 31G for around that compression and the RPM range I'm looking for. From their site:


"Great cam for motors with 95+ inches and 10:1 CR. Lower TDC lift means easy installation. Similar to 37G but different timing. 2000-5800 RPM power range. "

It's got the same lift and duration as the 37G, the timing is just moved for the higher compression. I'll talk with Bishops and see if they think that would be a good combo - ported SE perf heads, 31G, and flat tops. Or just stick with ported stock heads and 37G.

On Andrews site they give the 31G at 10.1 CR a broader torque range than the 37G.

Appreciate the feedback. :beer4u:
 

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I've heard from very knowledgeable sources the the 31 was originally designed for adder(supercharged/turbo) motors. Stay with the 37 and if you run the compression up to 10.2:1, you will get detonation. 10:1 is pretty much it but you don't really need more. The SE Perf Heads really don't need a whole lot to make them talk, you'll want better springs and a little clean up work and then deck'em. Talk with Bishop and see what they say.
 

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the 31 is a good cam with those that have 10.5 comp ratio. It will work very well ( yes true what is WAS made for but since then it has beenused and tested in 10+ set up with great results)
 

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"From what I've seen on the 95" HTCC heads and pistons, I would avoid that combination because of the shrouded piston top and the way they are doing the squish band. There are lots of them running around here that are perpetual ping machines, even with some of the best tuners trying to solve the problem. Now the 103" HTCC is a better design and not as prone to pinging like the 95". If you don't believe this, go to the parts counter and have them pull a set of 95" HTCC pistons and the heads and just look at it, then go talk to any reputable engine builder, like Bishop and ask them to compare that 95" HTCC design with using decked ported heads with the SE flat tops. You should get the same answer I got from the great local Indie builders. Of course if you ask the HD shop they'll say everything is just fine with it."

If I wasn't so cheap and this forum wasn't so screwed about letting non paying members post attachments I'd love to post a dyno sheet for a 95" CNC HTCC build that would put the above statement into it's proper place --- the BS receptacle! How's 110 Tq and 121 Hp grab ya? and Tq is at 100 lbs ft before 3000 rpm. No ping, no problems, it blew the doors off of just about anything it ever ran against --- even some motors that should have ate it's lunch. There's nothing inherently wrong with the HTCC setup for 95" --- just a whole bunch of people that don't know what it takes to make 'em work they way they should.
 

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Big Time said:
If you talk to Doug at Head Quarters, he'll tell you that 10.5:1 with the Hq 0039g's are unbeatable. I happen to have a set that I could let go real cheap. I opted to go with the new Red Shift 575 from Zipper's because I had to stay with the chain drives due to too much crank runout. With the gear drives you must have no more that 2 thousandths.
I want them cams if he doesn't. I like the cheap part:woohoo:
 

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HDWRENCH said:
the 31 is a good cam with those that have 10.5 comp ratio. It will work very well ( yes true what is WAS made for but since then it has beenused and tested in 10+ set up with great results)
That's good to know Steve!

Will the 31 deliver the same broad torque curve as the 37 will?

90+ftlbs at 2000, 100+ftlbs at 2800 and then on the other side 100ftlbs to 4900, 90ftlbs to 5700??

Does it need the higher compression to make it's numbers because of its altered int/exh timings?

I know of a whole bunch of happy 37's running around and no 31's.
 

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Let Bill help you.

This past winter Bill Bishop worked on my Deuce it runs great. Talk to him let him walk you through the land of preformance. Remeber all builds are give and takes. Identify what you want and He will build it.
 

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This past winter Bill Bishop worked on my Deuce it runs great. Talk to him let him walk you through the land of preformance. Remeber all builds are give and takes. Identify what you want and He will build it.
 

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vtwin_nut said:
If I wasn't so cheap and this forum wasn't so screwed about letting non paying members post attachments I'd love to post a dyno sheet for a 95" CNC HTCC build that would put the above statement into it's proper place --- the BS receptacle! How's 110 Tq and 121 Hp grab ya? and Tq is at 100 lbs ft before 3000 rpm. No ping, no problems, it blew the doors off of just about anything it ever ran against --- even some motors that should have ate it's lunch. There's nothing inherently wrong with the HTCC setup for 95" --- just a whole bunch of people that don't know what it takes to make 'em work they way they should.
Congrats vtwin_nut! I'm happy for you.

There is a lot inherently wrong with the 95" HTCC design. Great design for the strip, can make a lot of power with the right cam but it is just a terrible design for every day street use with common street cams that have typical early closing intake timing and high cranking pressure. There are tons of them running around where I live that dealers put together that run like crap and it's not a tuning issue. It can't be tuned out, it's a combination problem. See them all the time at the Indie shops seeking a solution, which is usually a pro street head decked for compression, good flat tops and a good cam choice for the riding style. Fact, like it or not, it's what I see here. Like I said, the 103" version is much better, when you see them side by side, it's easy to see why.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If it's a wash money wise, what would be a better torque curve:

Ported stock 05 heads, 37G, flat tops 9.7CR

Ported SE Perf heads 31G, flat tops 10.2CR


Would the SE Perf heads need different springs for a 31G? I'm thinking the 05stock heads would need a lot more work and parts. Is that the case, or do both pretty much need the full boat porting and spring/valve... change.
 

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Totenkopf said:
Congrats vtwin_nut! I'm happy for you.

There is a lot inherently wrong with the 95" HTCC design. Great design for the strip, can make a lot of power with the right cam but it is just a terrible design for every day street use with common street cams that have typical early closing intake timing and high cranking pressure. There are tons of them running around where I live that dealers put together that run like crap and it's not a tuning issue. It can't be tuned out, it's a combination problem. See them all the time at the Indie shops seeking a solution, which is usually a pro street head decked for compression, good flat tops and a good cam choice for the riding style. Fact, like it or not, it's what I see here. Like I said, the 103" version is much better, when you see them side by side, it's easy to see why.
Well, mis-application and the inability to put the right combo together I'll certainly agree with. The inherent design, however, I'll argue is just fine. It's not like we are dealing with an old high included valve angle hemi or pent roof chamber here. The HTCC and Hemi Designs setup are very similar and the dome is just not that big of a deal. It's not at all like a high dome for Shovelhead or Sportster. If you study it carefully you'll see that it's designed to not impede crossflow at TDC/overlap. It is important to make sure the quench is correct, that's where the cast HTCC heads can go off compared to the Hemi Designs machined chamber due to core shift on the SE cast heads. The guy that built my 95" and my 107" (which also uses the CNC HTCC heads) consistantly got 116-120+ Hp from the CNC HTCC setups, 105 -110 was "normal" for the non CNC. These were very streetable motors that had no detonation problems --- so I know it can be done. My 107" makes 129 Tq and 125 hp and I'm sure it could have made more but I asked for a mild motor (10:1 cr, mild cam) that built it's peak power below 6000 rpm and that's exactly what I got.
I agree that if I plunked down the money for a set of heads like the CNC HTCC and got numbers that were no better than what some get with SE Pro heads or a set of mildy ported stockers I'd be more than a little upset myself. Knowing that they are capable of much more than that would have me pointing the finger at the builder/tuner rather than the parts --- but that's just me!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
This build I'm just going to try to stay pretty basic with flat tops and conventional heads. I know there are many HTCC builds out there making great power. The tuner's I'm thinking about going with seem to concentrate on porting the conventional style head, so that's what I'll go with on this build.

Now just trying to decide between a Se Perf head because I can get a set dirt cheap, or ported stock.

But if they need just as much work as a stock head, may just have the stock 05 head worked over.

If compression is power, I'm thinking that SE Perf, 31G, flat top combo may be an interesting combo. Would those heads need more than just port clean up. The springs say up to .575 lift, should those be changed with a .510 lift 31G.
 

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More on topic, generally speaking the cam with a wider LSA will have a broader torque band than one with a narrower LSA --- however, peak torque may be lower than the narrow LSA cam. You have to be pretty specific in what it is you really want --- wide, flat torque or maximum peak torque but slightly less of a power band, you don't always get both. The proof of the pudding will always be what the real world results are when the components are combined. That's where the experience of the porter or builder comes into play. I've found it best to work closely with the builder and/or porter and make sure I tell them exactly what I'm looking for from the motor and have them show me real world examples of their work that fits my wants --- then follow their advice. There's a lot of good cams, heads, intake and exhaust systems running around with "unhappy" combos because the owner either didn't listen, tried to put something together on his own, or didn't tell his builder/porter the truth about what he really wanted. And, asking for something that will develop maximum power from idle to 6500 rpm is just not reasonable or possible with a normally aspirated, two valve, pushrod, air cooled 45* V-Twin --- if your guy says he can do that, thank him for his time and walk away!
 

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Michrider said:
This build I'm just going to try to stay pretty basic with flat tops and conventional heads. I know there are many HTCC builds out there making great power. The tuner's I'm thinking about going with seem to concentrate on porting the conventional style head, so that's what I'll go with on this build.

I agree. One should always go with what the builder/porter being used is comfortable with and gets the best results with. Put them on stange ground and you may put them on a learning curve that costs them and you both time and money

Now just trying to decide between a Se Perf head because I can get a set dirt cheap, or ported stock.

But if they need just as much work as a stock head, may just have the stock 05 head worked over.

If you shop around you can find new SE Pro heads pretty darn cheap (Zanotti's),and they really don't need much if anything in the way of work to get you decent numbers. Almost any mass produced head can benefit from hand cleanup, especially in the bowl/seat area. The '06 heads are supposed to be better than the earlier heads if you are gonna do ported stock, and some porters actually charge a little less 'cuz there is less for them to do.

If compression is power, I'm thinking that SE Perf, 31G, flat top combo may be an interesting combo. Would those heads need more than just port clean up. The springs say up to .575 lift, should those be changed with a .510 lift 31G.
Springs should be fine, actually they are a bit on the heavy side for my taste and the rev limit that the 31 will have, but not worth changing as the ramps on Andrews cams are pretty gentle as a rule and you shouldn't have noise issues. Other than cleaning out any casting marks and a little work in the bowl area along with a good performance valve job the SE Perf heads are not that bad, especially if you got a deal on them. Compression generally has more of an effect on low end power than top end Hp, high static compression is used to compensate for the late intake close of larger cams that make more power higher in the rpm band. The truth is that the stock cam has one of the widest, flattest torque curves you'll likely see, but since it's ground with emissions in mind and only has a couple of degrees of overlap it sucks in the power dept!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I definately agree on finding a package that works together, that got me leaning towards this Andrews 31G. It's advertised for the exact compression and RPM range I'm looking at.

I'll try to put a pic here of the bike. Just a stage 1 w/ a Python and SERT right now. Runs great for just a stage 1 and I've got pretty good at tweeking the SERT. Runs real good without a single decel pop, and the plugs look absolutely perfect. This is the third stage 1 Softail I've owned and definately the strongest. Probably due to the 2-1 and tinkering with the SERT. It was fun near stock for a year, now it needs more grunt.
 

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Michrider said:
I definately agree on finding a package that works together, that got me leaning towards this Andrews 31G. It's advertised for the exact compression and RPM range I'm looking at.
Remember what I said about the Andrews 32G. It is the same as the 31G except it will have a .570 lift. Should give you more in the same rpm range.

What do you think vtwin_nut?
 
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