V-Twin Forum banner
1 - 20 of 30 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anybody here know POSSITIVLY for sure if i can install a crane -/+ 4 degree 17 thooth crank sprocket on my twin cam 95 build.., without any issues., or valves tap dancing off the tops of my pistons., with using the Andrews TW60 cams with these SE HTCC CNC PORTED heads or not...???? Is anyone using this kind of combo., with the -/+4 degree crank gear installed in their bikes...???? :dunno:

I like the top end i`m getting., but i would like the cams to come a tiny bit quicker on the bottom end. I dont mind loosing a little top end performance so long as it gives me a bit more torque on the lowend. Surely i know that ther are trade off`s.., by adding this crank gear., if it will be safe to put in.

What are you guyz jetting your 45mm carbs at for this type build...???

This is a quick rundown what i have in my 99 dyna twincam (FXDX Sport)

95inch TC-A BigBore
Cams: Andrews TW60 (chain)
Bearings: Torrington B-148
Heads: SE HTCC CNC PORTED
Pistons: 1550 Forged 10.5 to 1
Carb: Mikuni 45mm (22.5/170/96needle w/e-clip center slot)
AirCleaner: SE (w/stock football cover over the SE unit)
Exhaust: SE ProTunable (16disc`s w/end covered)
Ignition: DynaTek (setting 30b - 6,500rev limit)
OilPump: stock99 w/Baisley Spring
Oil Filter: stk harley
Oil: 20w50 Harley oil
Lifters: SE
Pushrods: SE (fixed stk length)
Gearing: 3:37
Trans: 5-spd
Clutch: SE heavy duty

Now that this build is done., please dont ask me to install other cams or heads or carb. I could only do this build one time., due to limited cash. I bought these build parts dirt cheap all together from a friend of mine., so i gotta live with what i have. I would just like a touch more lowend response out of what i have., and tons of people have told me of this -/+ 4 crane crank gear., and to put it in to bring the power on a little sooner. Other than that., i am very happy with what i have., compared to what i spent.

Thanks in advance for any help you folks can send my way. (larry) :chopper:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Andrews TW60 cams w/crane crank -/+4 advance/retard..???

DanNZ said:
Your cam opening & closing points-TW60 IN open @ 24 IN [email protected] 56 EX [email protected] 58 EX [email protected] 22,

I would be retarding -4
Quite a agressive cam and i cant see it hurting to much retarding it 4 degrees,
Hi DanNZ., thanks for responding...!!!
The crane intructions tell me to put it in with +4 showing., to advance the cam timing to increase lowend torque. (am i reading the intructions right...???) And this is what i`m looking to do.., is to gain some more lowend torque., but you are saying -4.., to get more lowend response...???? Can you explain how you figured that out., cause now i`m confused. I would think the cam timing would be running later with open/close by using the -4 side of the crank gear. But i sure aint no expert in this stuff - lol.

Thanks much for your input and reply too...!!! (larry)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Andrews TW60 cams w/crane crank -/+4 advance/retard..???

Larry5150 said:
Hi DanNZ., thanks for responding...!!!

The crane intructions tell me to put it in with +4 showing., to advance the cam timing to increase lowend torque. (am i reading these intructions right...???) And this is what i`m looking to do.., is to gain some more lowend torque., but you are saying -4.., to get more lowend response...???? Can you explain how you figured that out., cause now i`m confused. I would think the cam timing would be running later with open/close by using the -4 side of the crank gear. But i sure aint no expert in this stuff - lol.

Anyway., my biggest concern is interference with adding this -/+ 4 crank gear. (its not a big deal to take it back out an turn it around if it isnt right the first time) I just dont wanna put it in and find out when i hit the key on an start the bike and hear valves bangin into the pistons due to the advance/retarding of using this gear.., because it will change the location of valve to piston clearance`s within -/+ 4 degree of timing. I just dont know if it will cause an issue or not is all i`m trying to figure out.


Thanks much for your input and reply too...!!! (larry)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
I havnt used one myself, but what ims saying is -4 of your cam opening/closing points , intake close is 56 and bringing it back to 52 would shift your powerband back 300rpm or so , Im no Expert, i would be following the instruction sheet for the install, someone else will chime in and clear things up,
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Andrews TW60 cams w/crane crank -/+4 advance/retard..???

Thanks DanNZ.., good idea.... lets see what the big cats here are willing to add to this thread. Its one of those deals like... is the glass half full., or is it half empty. (lol lol lol) :thanks:

I just dunno
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,740 Posts
You want to advance, i.e. earlier valve timing, the Crane instructions are correct. +4 however they say to orient it.
 

·
Got Jet Fuel ?
Joined
·
75 Posts
I too run a TW60A cam in my motor, I however didnt need to advance the cams due to the increased compression i run, 11.2 . my power starts to build @2300 rpms. my heads are at 79 cc's with larger valves. i too run a tunable pipe with 14 disc'c & open end cap.
But back to you. Did you deck you heads? are you pistons sitting .001-.003 below the tops of the cylinders? or .004-.006? what head gasket thickness are you running. and what is the spring seat pressure on the valves.
The TW60 cams have a very aggressive ramp rate. seat pressure is important, especially when chain drives are used at high RPM. When you use the crane component, valve timing my become an issue depending on clearance specsand tolerances. Due to the TW60 cam profile you have a fair amount of overlap which bleeds of compression at low rpm's(hence the reason for running a higher static compression to begin with.) ps what brand of pistons?
if i can help more just shout.


Note: No one can tell you POSSITIVLY for sure because of the clearance spec issues. anyone who say's yes without all the info is just guessing. And thats not a good way to start your riding season.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
The TW60 is almost a drag race cam. Bad for mid-range and torque. My advice would be to get a cam with earlier intake closing. I never cared for advancing and retarding cams. It can be risky with valve to piston clearance.
It also affects the exhaust cam timing as well, and that is not so good.
Ebay what you have and get a cam more suited to your build. A 4 degree band-aid is not going to help you much. It will only give you about 6 pounds more CCP which is almost 6 lps of torque. You can do way better than that.
 

·
Got Jet Fuel ?
Joined
·
75 Posts
jimlogan1965 said:
The TW60 is almost a drag race cam. Bad for mid-range and torque. My advice would be to get a cam with earlier intake closing. I never cared for advancing and retarding cams. It can be risky with valve to piston clearance.
It also affects the exhaust cam timing as well, and that is not so good.
Ebay what you have and get a cam more suited to your build. A 4 degree band-aid is not going to help you much. It will only give you about 6 pounds more CCP which is almost 6 lps of torque. You can do way better than that.



REMEMBER what i said about People Guessing WELL your guessing :spank:

These cams in his application can produce well over a 100 hp he can have so much power on tap that his midrange and your's are a world apart.

he did also state he was on a budget and he had to work with what parts he now has.. So to be a real help, lets just get him dialed in a little closer.
 

·
IronButt
Joined
·
6,364 Posts
Well since you are working with what you have , and you plan on using the 4* key, You will not really notice it unless you are looking at a dyno sheet 300 rpm is a blip on the throttle.
But to your question, You really will need to clay the motor, to make sure you have enough clearance, NO way for any one to tell you onve the net YES it will work, a donkey cart of vairables with piston, deck height, pushrod flex, lifter bleed down. You need to go the extra mile to make sure that you are ok , not to take the chance and see if it will be ok. Even if does not hit on start up it may only take one time for a mis shift to make items hit in the valve train. You will need a soild lifter ( make your own) adjustable pushrod( you can make this as well) molding clay( not play dough) a used head gasket of same thickness, checker springs ( hardware store) and that will do it.

Put a small amount of oil on piston top apply clay to piston valve pockets, use the old gasket, ( swap out springs) tq head, set your valve lash roll motor over once. Remove the head remove clay. Cut the clay in half with razor blad and measure it. I like to see a min of .060 So there you have it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Well Helo, I'm not really guessing at all. I work in a shop that sells 600 bikes ayear and does a lot of dyno tuning and performance work.
Advancing any cam 4 degrees is going to lower it's sweet spot about 400 RPM and kick the cylinder pressure up about 6 pounds thereby increasing the torque output just about 1.5 lbs per degree.
If you think I'm guessing, try it yourself and test it on your dyno. I have seen it so many times it is predictable.
Wanna bet money?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Andrews TW60 cams w/crane crank -/+4 advance/retard..???

Wow guyzzz..., tons of info as well as opinions are comin in here about this issue. And i totally appreciate everything you folks offer here to help me. But let me stress again here., that i`m really askin if anyone is actually using this type of gear with their bike build., with the fact of them using the exact same heads/pistons/cams that i`m using. If clearance was an issue for them to use the -/+4 crank gear., then what did they do to correct the problem to be able to use it.., or why they couldnt use it.

Also., if anyone`s using the Mikuni 45 with their "simular" build.., if so., what are you jetted at...???? I`m not to sure if i`m set up with the jetting properly is all. I surely cant afford dyno time right now. I just wanna make sure i`m in the ballpark so to speak. I can fine tune it from there. Just lookin for a GOOD starting point to be safe.

I forgot to mention the fact that i`m using the SE headgaskets too. (SE Part #16101-01) They are pretty thick gaskets., so maybe this will add into the factors as well too..???..., for some more clearence of the valve to the piston relation. I know that alot of you like using those cometic 0.030 gaskets to raise your compression. I`ve read on these forums that the big guyz here tell you that you cant use them with the type of build i have.., due to clearence issues because the heads already come milled out of the factory.

(heliopilot...??? - your question about head decking...???)
I have been told you cant "deck" the HTCC CNC PORTED heads because they already come milled at 0.060ths differance under T/cam stock heads. (i do not know how true this is, about the decking/milling of HTCC CNC PORTED heads) I`ve also been told you cant use the cometic 0.030 gaskets with these heads SE HTCC CNC PORTED heads either.

I`m also wondering what your setup is., and how you got to 11.2 compression. I`ve been told you cant get any more than what i have for compression because you HAVE to use the HTCC pistons with these heads.., and you cant use any other head gasket either., except the SE head gasket.., with this setup i have.

(HDWRENCH)
HD., thanks so very much on your input here. You are very respected in these forums. If i can get the cash up., i`ll go buy another set of gaskets to tear this engine down., and clay it up to see what i come with. But for now., thanks to the great state of NY and its liberals`s here.., i`ve been unemployed for awhile., and every little penny counts here. The bike runs pretty good and i`m pretty happy overall., i was just lookin for a less expensive way to use the crank gear without it costing me more money., to possibly get me a touch more low end torque. If it turns out that the gear wont work., not a big deal. Someday when i can afford to just throw in a better set of cams., i`ll surely do it. NONETHELESS my friend..., i read ALOT of your forum threads., and have learned a great deal from you. Too you.. i deeply respect.

%[email protected] = :sofa:
I`m not into starting a pissing contest here folks., on who knows more than another here., i was just lookin for people that have done it and know that if it worked or not.


Thanks to ALL.., that can feed our hunger for more knowlege :beer4u:
 

·
IronButt
Joined
·
6,364 Posts
The question you ask ( have it been done) Like I said with out tear down i would not try it. Leave it alone until you can do the claying . Yes I have use the cam both ways but would I just install the 4* key??? No way!!!! Like i said a donkey cart full of variables. Please leave it as is for now ride the bike until you can do the job properly. As for head gaskets, the cometic head gaskets are reusable. If you need a set of cometic gaskets that bad i will GIVE them to you if it means you will do the job right instead of taking the chance. If you need them that bad call me I will ship you a set of .030 head gaskets.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Andrews TW60 cams w/crane crank -/+4 advance/retard..???

HDWRENCH said:
The question you ask ( have it been done) Like I said with out tear down i would not try it. Leave it alone until you can do the claying . Yes I have use the cam both ways but would I just install the 4* key??? No way!!!! Like i said a donkey cart full of variables. Please leave it as is for now ride the bike until you can do the job properly. As for head gaskets, the cometic head gaskets are reusable. If you need a set of cometic gaskets that bad i will GIVE them to you if it means you will do the job right instead of taking the chance. If you need them that bad call me I will ship you a set of .030 head gaskets.
HDWRENCH.., man i sure do appreciate your offer my friend., but i couldnt let ya do that budd. Yeah being unemployed sucks right now., but i`ll get to work again sooner or later., but in any case HD., i greatly appreciate it alot that you`d offer to help me like that my friend.

I`ve read on these forums i can not use the 0.030ths gaskets with these SE CNC Ported heads., due to clearance issues. I surely dont know how true that is., or even if its really true at all. So many opinions on here about it. It whinds up being a pissin contest with some people on here about it.

As for doin the job right., i`m ALL about doing it 100 percent right. Thats why i asked all the questions before trying that gear. If the TW60 cams arent a good choice., what would you recommend replacing them with., to get what i`m looking for out of this build..??? I like the power i`m getting., i would just like a little bit more on the bottom end without loosing a ton of the midrange an top end that i have right now.

I`m not to positive that i have it jetted right either. I`m running the mikuni 45mm carb - 22.5-pilot/96-needle/170-mainjet. (many on the forum emailed me an told me to go with this jetting - i believe its not the right jetting) I myself., believe the bike seems lean to me. Frequent popping when takin off with it., even when the bike is warmed up. But has alot of black smoke when throttling from 1/2 to WOT. Very doggy when wide open., pulling in 3rd an 4th gear. If you have any idea where the jetting should be., throw some ideas at me. I have lots of jetting parts., so i`m happy to try what you suggest., to get me in the ballpark with it.

I`m going to put the 25 pilot back in it., an see where i`m at with it to see if this will cure the popping at idle to 1/4 throttle. As for the main jet an needle., just have to keep messing with it till it feels right i guess. Always better to be rich., than too lean., is the way i look at it., until i can afford the dyno tuning for it.

Anyway buddie., i sure do appreciate everything you`ve contributated so far.

(larry)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,232 Posts
HDWRENCH said:
The question you ask ( have it been done) Like I said with out tear down i would not try it. Leave it alone until you can do the claying . Yes I have use the cam both ways but would I just install the 4* key??? No way!!!! Like i said a donkey cart full of variables. Please leave it as is for now ride the bike until you can do the job properly. As for head gaskets, the cometic head gaskets are reusable. If you need a set of cometic gaskets that bad i will GIVE them to you if it means you will do the job right instead of taking the chance. If you need them that bad call me I will ship you a set of .030 head gaskets.

Larry,

You've gotten great advice from some very experienced builders. Though someone may have an identical build - without measuring/claying, no one can predict whether or not you'll have clearance. If you "go for it" without claying, you're taking a risk.

Given you've mentioned budget as a factor - your bike could be down for a long time just because of your failure to heed good advice and eliminate risk.

I second riding the bike as it is until you can check, and if you have time now -Wrench's offer is most generous. If you "go for it" anyway, and grenade your motor, I ask that you not post about it.
 

·
IronButt
Joined
·
6,364 Posts
Like I said no way to know until you have it apart. I find that the .030 will work due to the tdc heigth. But again until you check it no way to know.

For jetting one thing I find with Mik's is that most have the pump on too long. and hitting too late as well. I set the rod 10-15 tough off the block and have it stop pumping by 1/2 no longer. Start there as the accel pump will cause you grief even if you do have the proper jets in place.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Andrews TW60 cams w/crane crank -/+4 advance/retard..???

FXDRYDR said:
Larry,

You've gotten great advice from some very experienced builders. Though someone may have an identical build - without measuring/claying, no one can predict whether or not you'll have clearance. If you "go for it" without claying, you're taking a risk.

Given you've mentioned budget as a factor - your bike could be down for a long time just because of your failure to heed good advice and eliminate risk.

I second riding the bike as it is until you can check, and if you have time now -Wrench's offer is most generous. If you "go for it" anyway, and grenade your motor, I ask that you not post about it.
Hello FXDRYDR..,
everyones advice is VERY well taken from all the guyz here. I cant ever thank all you guyz enough for all your help. BUT., surely i`m not dumb enough to take the chance on just throwing the gear in there without having asked about it in the first place. 40yrs turnin wrenchs., i surely have somewhat of a brain left i think..lol. If it were just a set of stock type or bolt in cams., i wouldnt hesitate tryin it. Havin no cash available to play with my toys really sucks darn it..lol. I`m going to hold off from doing anything with the bike until i get it jetted properly first., because mainly i do not have the funds to be messin with it right now. It surely dont run that bad., and i think maybe my biggest problem i have right now is the jetting issues with the carb. So i think its very wise to get that issue resolved first. Who know`s., maybe this may be the reason it feels like it dosent have the power i`m lookin for on the bottom end of the spectrum. It feels close., but i`m still not convinced that its 100 percent correct yet with the jetting on the carb. This is the first time i`ve ever used a mikuni 45mm. So i have a little bit to learn on how to get the right combo for this build. I`ve always used a 42mm carb in the past and never had an issue with any of those. This 45mm is a bit less forgiving capared to the 42mm carbs.., but i`m betting its the type of build i have., thats the main reason. I still need to learn the charactoristics of the bike too., with this new build. No two exact builds react the same. With all the help on this forum., we`ll get there for sure. Thanx a ton for all your help..! (larry) :chopper:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
219 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Mikuni 45 Jetting

HDWRENCH said:
Like I said no way to know until you have it apart. I find that the .030 will work due to the tdc heigth. But again until you check it no way to know.

For jetting one thing I find with Mik's is that most have the pump on too long. and hitting too late as well. I set the rod 10-15 tough off the block and have it stop pumping by 1/2 no longer. Start there as the accel pump will cause you grief even if you do have the proper jets in place.
HD..,
as far as i`m concerned.., you hit the nail right on the head with the carb pump adjustment issue...!!!!! I have never been convinced nore impressed with how it says to set up the pump on these carbs in the mikuni manuel. What you`ve just described here., is exactly how i like them set up. THANK you., for adding that statment to this thread..!!!
~!Awesome!
 
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
Top