[wkohn]

Chap,
I am about to change to the Amsoil products myself. My research has convince me to proceed with the MCV 20W50 for the crankcase and primary and use the Amsoil Heavy Duty 75W90 Tranny fluid in the transmission.

However, I think even if you use Amsoil's 20W50 in all three holes you will be better off than using the SYN3 product. Again, this is the conclusion I came to after a fairly significant internet search.

You might want to ask this same question in the "Engine Oils and Lubrication Forum" above!

I sell Amsoil and this is what I have been using in my bike.
Summer months
MCV 20W-50 (engine and primary)
SVG 75W-90 (transmission) Might go to 75W-140 this summer

Winter
AME 15W-40 (engine)
MCV 20W-50 (primary)
SVG 75W-90 (transmission)

Mobil 1 works better that the other stuff at the stealer. I case you are low and need to add while out of town.

 

[wkohn]

I used the new 20W50 Amsoil formula in my engine last season with Redline in the Trans. This season I'm going to try all Redline (20W50, MTL & Shockproof Heavy) because I think Redline makes a fantastic product. Prior to making this decision, I was also curious about using either Mobil or Amsoil's SVG 75W140 in my trans.

The following is the response I got back from Mobile regarding the use of their 75W140 gear oil in the Harley transmission: "The Mobil1 75W140 should not be used as this is too viscous of a fluid and will not allow proper protection, performance and shifting chracteristics."

Ask Mobil if they put a tackifier in there gear oils. If they do that could be why they do not recommend it. Amsoil does not use a tackifier.

Baker Transmissions recommends a 75W-140 to be used in their DD6.

With Redline before using them ask them to supply the following;
Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172 @ 40 kgf, 150°C, 1800 rpm, 1 hour), Scar in mm (.40 or smaller would be good)
Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D-5800) (3.89 or smaller would be good)
Total Base Number (11 or higher would be good)

When you get the info post it cause I would be very interested.

 

[wkohn]

I used the new 20W50 Amsoil formula in my engine last season with Redline in the Trans. This season I'm going to try all Redline (20W50, MTL & Shockproof Heavy) because I think Redline makes a fantastic product. Prior to making this decision, I was also curious about using either Mobil or Amsoil's SVG 75W140 in my trans.

The following is the response I got back from Mobile regarding the use of their 75W140 gear oil in the Harley transmission: "The Mobil1 75W140 should not be used as this is too viscous of a fluid and will not allow proper protection, performance and shifting chracteristics."

By the way. Redline says that the Shockproof Heavy can be rated as a 75W-250. Now if Mobil says not to use a 75W-140 and Redline says you can use their Shockproof Heavy. Who do you believe and why?

 

[wkohn]

Last time I looked at Baker Drivetrain's web site they were recommending Shockproof Heavy for their transmissions, not sure about specific recommendation for their DD6 trans, nor do I care, I have a 5 speed.

Mobil1 could be using modified pancake syrup in the 75W140 gear oil for all I know, it doesn't effect me, I use Redline - just wanted to post their response as an FYI.

As far as as comparing the stats for Amsoil vs Redline, this is not my field or my concern even though I was a Petroleum Transfer Engineer at my first job I ever had. However, I would also like to see some real apples-to-apples comparison's of Amsoil vs. Redline. Frankly I'm surprised Amsoil has not yet provided this information seeing as though they compare their oil's to just about everyone else in the market. If you know any of the "powers-to-be" at Amsoil, maybe you could be influential in having them provide myself and the rest of the world with these analysis.

Have you noticed that Redline hasn't compared theirs to Amsoil? Another question I have for Redline is why are they so vague in their test results on their web site? Why not list the test results like Amsoil does so it is easier to compare for those that are not a Tribologist?

 

[wkohn]

Not trying to get in a pissing match, especially since I'm just an end user, not distributor or mfg. Let me also go on the record to say I think Amsoil is a high quality product, but I also think Redline is of equal or in some cases greater quality.

In response to your statement I see that Redline compares their lubes with generic dino oil and a couple synthetics labeled as M & C. Amsoil compares their SAE 50 group oil to 14 specific manufacturers on their "White Paper". Based on a non scientific oil poll done in this Forum, Redline is one of the more popular oils being used, just under Amsoil, Mobil1 & SE Syn3 if I'm not mistaken, so why then would Amsoil not include Redline in the mix?

I'm in sales and have been for 20+ years. I believe in the expression "The Devil is in the Details" and that important details are in what is not being said more so than what is being said. If Amsoil went to the effort of examining 14 other competing motorcycle oils and left out Redline, I can only assume there was a reason and that it was not just an oversight.

Either way, I think trying to figure which oil is best between Amsoil vs. Redline is like comparing BMW vs. Mercedes or Ford vs. Chevy, you get the idea.

I'm not in a pissing match. I just really want to know.

Maybe the reason why Redline was not in the test was because of the companies that Amsoil did compare against were the top 14 companies that were going after the motorcycle oil market. Redlines major push is in Drag Racing and not the motorcycle aftermarket. Hence they were not on the radar screen. But Redline compares to a dino and M & C oils. Why didn't they compare to Amsoil? What is Redline hiding from?

Just because Redline is popular on this forum doesn't mean it is the best. 95" bore kits are popular as power options but a comparably set up 98" kit will out perform the 95". True Dual exhaust are popular but they cause you to lose power compared to the stock exhaust.

I have been in Sales since 1981 and it is true "The Devil is in the Details". That is the one thing missing from Redlines web page. Details.

 

[wkohn]

I live in Socal guys, where it's year round riding & temp for riding pretty much never ever drops below 50. Dont know if that makes a difference in what I use, as I see some like the Severe Gear Oil & some run the 20/50 in all 3. Let me know, this tranny thing has me baffled.

Thanx
Chap

Run the Severe Gear in the Transmission. The 75W-90 should be all you need. If you were running into temps above 90 to 95 degrees all the time then I would look into the 75W-140.

 

[wkohn]

Wkohn...

the summer here gets pretty hot weather wise, easily into the 90's. what do you think...

later,
chap

Chap,

I myself would be using the 75W-140 if the weather were to be at that for about two months or longer in a row and I was doing a lot of riding. If you are only going to be doing a little bit of riding then stick with the 75W-90. Both should have the same amount of extreme pressure additives just that one has a high viscosity which will stay at a higher level for the duration of the 5,000 miles before you change it again. Another thing with the Severe Gear oils is that they were designed for heavy equipment gear boxes and are designed to go 500,000 miles. So having the oil in our gear boxes for 5,000 miles will show very little decrease in viscosity over the 5,000 miles. There is one trade off with the 75W-140. It could reduce your gas mileage because of an increase in hydrualic drag.

I have a chart someplace here that shows the viscosity differences between engine and gear oils. There is very little difference, if any, in viscosity between a 20W-50 engine oil and a 75W-90 gear oil. I will see if I can find that chart today.

Bill

 

[wkohn]

I read all the articles I could find on what weight to use and sent an email to Amsoil. They said to use 20-50 MCV in all three.

Amsoil says 20W-50 because Harley says 20W-50. When it comes down to warranty claims and Harley will say they were not using a 20W-50 like we said. Then you have to in court go and educated the court on the actual viscosity differences between the engine and gear oils. Lawyers are at about $250/hour here. Amsoil is trying to make life simple for those that don't know about the differences between the two oils. Basically.

 

[wkohn]

With the summer weather here in Socal, i'm gonna go with the 20/50 in engine & primary, & the severe gear 75/90 in the tranny. The most miles i'll put on in the summer might be 1500, so I think i'll be ok. You guys think so ??

Thanx
Chap

Yep you don't run very many miles to have to worry.

 

[wkohn]

I have been running Amsoil for over 5 years now. I have had great results.

Here is my take. I have run multiple oils over the 10 years I have owned my bike. Redline and Mobil included. I think that they are great oils. However, with those two oils, as well as all the others, my magnetic pick up still had material on it. When I started running Amsoil, I quit having to clean material off the magnetic pick up. My theory being that it must be providing better protection and less wear. I believe in it so much, I started selling it.

My .02

Same here. Just not as long. :clap:

 

[wkohn]

I am an engineer by profession. Although, technology is getting better all the time, I still think that gear oil for gears is better than an engine oil with all of the detergents in it. Yes I could run it, however what is best???

For me. Gear oil is best in the transmission. But that is just me -2$en#e-

 

[wkohn]

A Study of Motorcycle Oils

This is a good paper.

 

[wkohn]

I agree...this is an excellent study. It is one of the reasons (blind faith??) that I am giving the Amsoil products a try.

HOWEVER, the only issue I have with this study is that there is no indication (that I could find) that this was an independent test evaluation. This kind of marketing document would carry MUCH MORE weight if it had actually been performed by someone other than Amsoil. Stressing the testing was performed in "accordance w/ ASTM test methods" doesn't mean that the data couldn't have been manipulated along the way! I have worked in industry long enough to know that you can always get the results you want even when performing testing to standard testing methods!! Being the skeptic that I am, I did not base my decision to use Amsoil completely on the information provided in this document. Actually, I am "jumping on the bandwagon" because there are a lot of actual user testimonies that I have read that convinced me to give the product a try.

BTW, thanks for posting the file! I will keep it filed for future reference!!

There is a reason why you never see an independant lab run these tests. They all do work or are trying to get work from the different oil manufacturers/distributors and don't want to upset any of them by pointing out how bad their oils really are. Amsoil has to much to lose by printing bad information or test data. A good name is hard to get and a bad name is very hard to lose.

I myself after mixing my own oils for a few years. EPA made it impossible. Decided to sell Amsoil which happens to be the best I could find.

 

[wkohn]

Exactly what I use in my 05 FXDL and VERY pleased.



My response to that question is "They don't have to - their stuff is great!!"...

Clorox Bleach is also a great lubricant. You might want to try that. Only problem is that after combustion it will turn into Hydrocloric Acid.

Looks like I will have to buy some Redline and send it in for chemical analyst. Would still like to see from Redline the Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172 @ 40 kgf, 150°C, 1800 rpm, 1 hour), Scar in mm. Amsoil isn't afraid to post theirs. Why is Redline afraid to post one of the most standard tests?

For a bunch of guys you sure get emotionally attached to good marketing instead of looking at facts. %[email protected]

 

[wkohn]

As for the 4-ball wear tests and all that ... no, I can't get results for anything other than what Amsoil publishes, because apparantly only Amsoil uses those tests as a marketing tool .... :hmmm: ....

Doing a quick search on the web I came up with a few companies that use that test;

Mobil
Amsoil
Shell (but they don't like it)
Sunoco
Schaeffer Oil
Lubrication Engineers
Chevron

and bunches of others.

Maybe Amsoil uses it as a "marketing tool" because they have something to crow about. NAH

 

[wkohn]

I just Googled "Mobil 1 four ball wear test scar" and (of course...) got about 70,700 hits ... The first 2 pages were ALL links to different Amsoil distributor sites (most with EXACTLY the same data repeated over and over again ...) with names like 'syntheticoildealer.com', 'bestsynthetics.com', 'eastcoastsynthetics.com', and even 'amsoil.com' ... after 2 pages of this my eyes rolled up into my head and I believe I suffered a mild stroke. After regaining consciousness, I decided that if there is ANY real, independent data out there, I ain't gonna find it on an internet search, because Amsoil has all the search engines stacked.

Marketing and hype, superstition and distinctions without difference ... .

I did my search using the test # in quotation marks and then started adding oil company names. Comes up with far less Amsoil web sites. If all else fails. Go to the major oil companies sites.

 

[wkohn]

I just Googled "Mobil 1 four ball wear test scar" and (of course...) got about 70,700 hits ... The first 2 pages were ALL links to different Amsoil distributor sites (most with EXACTLY the same data repeated over and over again ...) with names like 'syntheticoildealer.com', 'bestsynthetics.com', 'eastcoastsynthetics.com', and even 'amsoil.com' ... after 2 pages of this my eyes rolled up into my head and I believe I suffered a mild stroke. After regaining consciousness, I decided that if there is ANY real, independent data out there, I ain't gonna find it on an internet search, because Amsoil has all the search engines stacked.

Marketing and hype, superstition and distinctions without difference ... .

Oh wait there is more. The oil analyst companies offer the ASTM D-4172 test. I knew those scientist were superstitious. Are we having fun yet?

 

[wkohn]

Yeah, but the underlying point remains ... what do these differences in test results translate to in actual real-world use in a H-D motor? For example, if the 4-ball test at 150deg/C, 40kg for 1 hour produces a smaller scar on the test if I use Amsoil than Mobil 1, that's great .... but if my engine melts into a pile of slag because the bearings couldn't handle that temperature and pressure over that period of time, spending the extra $4 a quart on Amsoil didn't help me one diddly-darn bit, now did it?

Distinctions without (demonstrated) difference ...

That is the whole idea behind a standard test. 150deg/C=302deg/F It is an extreme (but not that extreme) test that gives you extra protection in case you lose oil pressure or get a leak. Give you time to shut down without destroying everything. Plus the better an oil does in that test the less friction/wear you will have and the more power you will have (very small percentage) to drive you down the road.

 

[wkohn]

The test results give me no extra protection at all. The theoretical benefit of an oil that performs better on that test may well be extra protection under those circumstances, but until the lab test differences are shown to make a real-world difference in an H-D engine that loses oil pressure or develops a leak (ie, Amsoil lubed engine ran 0.04 seconds longer than Mobil 1 lubed engine before melting into a pile of slag) it's all just hype. I mean, it'd be great to get that extra 0.04 seconds going down the highway, but c'mon ...

Here's an analogy (because I love analogies...). Supposed there was a laboratory test that demonstrated that a surplus NASA spacesuit provides better isolation from weather than my leather jacket and chaps. Does that test results necessarily mean that I'd be better off riding down the road on a motorcycle while wearing a spacesuit than my leathers?

So if you take a .45 and put it up to your head and pull the trigger with a 2" thick steel plate between your head and the gun. Then do the same test without the 2" thick steel plate. In which test will the bullet put a hole through your head?

Tests are designed to give us something to make our educated decisions on. Without the tests. Your just guessing.

 

[wkohn]

Uhhh, this is much more analogous (I love analogies...) to my previous statement about 'any oil being better than no oil' than it is to a comparison between oils. A better analogy would be between different thicknesses of steel plate. However, it seems to me that the 4-ball wear test says something similar to "would you rather have a 2.0001 inch thick plate, or a 2 inch thick plate costing half as much", without the whole being dead issue ...



Oh, I agree. In fact, I based my statement that any synthetic is better than any crude stock based oil on lab tests that showed DRAMATIC differences between the 2 types of oil in terms of resistance to thermal breakdown. The sticky point is whether the much smaller test differences between different brands of synthetic oil have any real-world application. My stance (despite having no plate in my head...) is that the tests do not demonstrate any real-world difference.

This is to the point of being ridiculous. The test demonstrates wear of a part (4 balls), at a set temp (150deg/C), at a set pressure (40KG), at a set speed (1,800rpm), for a set time (1 hour) and producing a wear scar that varies with different types and brands of oils.

If this is not a real world test then you need to see if it works on your 2 balls in 302 deg/F oil, under 88# of pressure, against a 1,800rpm spinning piece of steel, for 1 hour. Tell me if there is a wear scar after. And if it was real world enough for you. :roflback: