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Vagrant
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know, I know, another 95" build question. But I did a few searches here, and there is some good SERT reading, but I am not finding too many direct answers to a a couple of questions that came up today when I talked with my dealer about some H-D part install work. I have assembled the H-D PN#: 29850-04A big bore Stage II kit for '05 EFI Softails and was getting quotes to install the kit on my Stage I '05 Softail Deluxe (V&H Bigshots, SE A/C, Stage I download, RevTech fueler).

Item 1: One dealer said it would be about $1200 (Grove's H-D, Winchester, VA) labor and another said it would be $400 (Patriot H-D, Fairfax, VA). That's without dyno time. Both knew I already had the H-D parts in hand. How do discrepancies like this happen or does it sound like they are misunderstanding things? Can $400 for a 95" kit and cam be right? One dealer wanted $480 just to install the cam.

Item 2: I've seen that there are some pretty good SERT base maps for this kind of setup but I was surprised to see that neither dealer knew if H-D had a factory Stage II ECM download for this setup (or similar). The pipes seem to be basically Screamin’ Eagle 16 gauge double barrels and the 95"/203 cam kit is a pretty common H-D part. There is no H-D Stage II download?
 

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Hmmm

There's a download listed in the SE catalog along with the kit on page 28. They call it "required ECM recalibration". I gotta imagine it's a regularly available download.
 

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The SERT includes all the canned stage maps. The difference in cost could be the fact you didn't buy the parts from them. $480 to install cams is rediculous.
 

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Vagrant
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
OrangeTJ said:
... They call it "required ECM recalibration". I gotta imagine it's a regularly available download.
Yeah, that's what I thought but checking the part numbers I can only find Stage II big bore ECM calibration kits for '06 bikes like H-D PN#: 34241-06, no '04 - '05 EFI Softails (race or street legal).
 

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HD-LUX said:
Yeah, that's what I thought but checking the part numbers I can only find Stage II big bore ECM calibration kits for '06 bikes like H-D PN#: 34241-06, no '04 - '05 EFI Softails (race or street legal).
FWIW,

If you search post's here you'll see alot of unhappy folks that get the download. The downloads are still epa compliant, I think.

As you know our area is lacking someone who knows how to tune using the sert.

Would you let Patriot dyno your bike. I think NOT.

I went PC. I know it's not the best. But if you can't find someone who can work the voodoo with the sert, it's the better option.

Just my -2$en#e-
 

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$480 for the cam install sounds like twice what it should be. Using $80/hour for labor, which is probably what Patriot charges, works out to 6 hours. I had my SE-203 cams installed at HD of Frederick. Four hours of labor for cams and new pushrods at $60/hour. From what I have seen in other threads, that is probably a little high.

It almost sounds like the Patriot number is for the cams and the Groves number is for everything but the dyno.

Stephen Smith
2005 FXDXI
Stage I a/c and ECM recalibration
SE 203 cams
HD Dyna slip-on mufflers
 

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don't waste your money on building a 95 and then flashing the ecm. it will be lean, hiccup, run hot and run like a dog.
that same build with a real tune, or even using the PCIII will be a completely different animal.
 

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Vagrant
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
vafatboy said:
FWIW,... I went PC ...
Thanks, I have been looking at that PCIII USB option and reading up. Whitt sells em over the counter and I was out talking to them about it. I see that the '01 - '06 Softail PCIII has a map that looks just right for me. It is M805-064 for a Stage 1 ECU with Vance & Hines Straight shots (ok, I got Big shots), 95" big bore kit (flat top pistons), SE 203 cams and SE A/C. That sounds right on. What did you start with? How did it work out?
 

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Vagrant
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Hmmm, brand new PCIII USB 805-511 on Ebay from American Classic Motors for $268 plus $8 shipping -- no tax. Not bad. They are in PA. I've bought some stuff off Ebay from them before. Think I might pick it up. I imagine I can Ebay my Techlusion TFI box for $100 bucks to take some of the sting off that too. If I can get the 95" kit and cam installed at Patriot like they quoted me for $400 and then just dump a decent PCIII map on my Stage I ECM for $270 bucks more, maybe getting 90% or 95% of the potential (without a serious dyno tune from a real tuner) then I think I'd drive away happy. My total Stage II big bore build would be almost exactly $1000 parts and labor out of pocket at that point.
 

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Since the 95" 203 cam build is not that high output the Techlusion TFI box should be able to handle the additional fuel demand. The wifes 95" 203 and 16 guage exhaust is running fine with the Techlusion TFI box. They have 95" setting with stage II download and no downloads. Try using Techlusion TFI box and see if it is performs good enough before spending money on Power Commander.
 

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Dont waste your money on downloads. Both times the dealer did mine, I had it dyno'd at my local indy, and it was way lean down low and rich here and there. Go PC111 and dyno on the new 250i with tunelink. Good Luck, BOB
 

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Vagrant
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Would not the MAP sensor reading be way off with the 203 cams in there and no Stage II download, just the TFI adding fuel on a Stage I map? I was reading up on my TFI settings and as you say there is no specific settings for a Stage I ECM and a Stage II big bore setup. On the TFI help section they say that the TFI may not help enough in that scenario. I am glad to hear your OL's bike works well like that. I wonder if the PCIII ECM "intervention" can compensate better for that difference?
 

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Vagrant
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
nw_guy4_fun said:
Post # 11
Yeah, I think I'm gonna try the PCIII for the build, I'm out $150 when I Ebay the TFI and it's not the SERT or a professional tune but it sounds like it's enough for what I want out of the bike right now. And I won't have to spend the $300 bucks on the dyno plus another $180 for the ECM download that the dealer was gonna hit me up for.
 

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Oh, I think you will eventually end up getting a custom map built for your PC111. Canned maps are pretty much all over the place with AFR and timing. Good enough to get you to the dyno, and you would not believe what a difference an hour on the dyno getting a decent map built will make for your rides performance and driveability.
AP
 

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HD-LUX said:
Yeah, I think I'm gonna try the PCIII for the build, I'm out $150 when I Ebay the TFI and it's not the SERT or a professional tune but it sounds like it's enough for what I want out of the bike right now. And I won't have to spend the $300 bucks on the dyno plus another $180 for the ECM download that the dealer was gonna hit me up for.
Chris,

I have a custom map done for:

95" Flat Tops, 37b cam and V&H Big Shot Staggerds.

If you look at the cam profiles 203 vs. 37 they are not that different.

You could use this map to get you by. Hit one of the bigger events close by and get a tweaked map.

I got my map done at Myrtle Beach last year for about 150.00.

I didn't have him do any exhaust tuning. He just did timing and afr. About six or seven pulls. Along with while under load stuff.

It is yours if you want it.

Give me a shout. You got my cell.

Later
 

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Vagrant
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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
vafatboy said:
... I have a custom map ... It is yours if you want it.
Coolio, I'll take you up on that as soon as I get back into town. I'm leaving today for a week. The 95" jugs should be back by then. I have the PCIII USB on order and all the rest (cams, gaskets, spacers, pistons, pins, clips, etc.) are all here and waiting. I took my RevTech Stealth DFO off today and put it up on Ebay. I put my passenger footrests back on and also have a matching Corbin passenger pillion and detachable H-D backrest coming so I can 2-up the OL when the build is done. So if everything comes together next week when I get back, I'll put the PCIII on running a Stage I map and then and dump either the basic PCIII map or your Stage II big bore map on it when I drop it off. I am scheduled to have it all installed starting on May 5th at Patriot.

Here's the cam specs and differences:

 

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SE 203 95" canned map

I was told that the Big Bore stage II RACE map was actually pretty good for the 06 95" stage 2 kit with the 203 cams with "big" pipes.
 

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I've got the 95" kit w/203 cams, SE air cleaner and BSS staggered pipes with the quiet baffles. It just came off the dyno last night, I'm picking it up today. I'm not real familiar with the race tuner, but if there is a way to downlaod a copy of my map and email it to you, I would be glad to. Maybe some of the gurus here can comment on that, and if applicable, give me some instructions.
 

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You'll need to ask the tuner for a copy of the map on a disk, if you want to have it to make future tweaks or share it. Then that opens the whole can of worms of some turners not wanting to give it to you. Make sure to ask for it before paying the bill. Use the logic that your paying for a custom map, you want a copy.
 
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