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Oh BlackDawg, I have read the 2 pages you referenced in your last post, and both pages are concerning potential fault codes that can be registered as failures and stored in the ECM.

If you were really as observant as you claim to be you would have noticed earlier in this thread that when the ZERO throttle position of the ETC is stored in the ECM it does NOT set a DTC. And if you were to read page 40 of your owners manual you would also learn the the ETC feed the ECM which them feeds the throttle body.

And I realize that using your hand to reach over and turn off the ignition is too complicated of a ritual for you to learn, so however you are doing it, I hope it continues to work for you.
I am not saying that you or others haven't experienced this problem. My argument is that there is something else going on that causes this condition and that it doesn't set a DTC. But puts the TBW assembly in the limp home position.

I am guessing that has been your experience? NO DTC? If it is a fact that shutting down re-writes the IDLE position in memory they would all do it. So did I get the only one that isn't broken? I doubt it.

My reference to the manual was to float out there, that there is a potential for your bike to not find Zero at the throttle body when turning the ignition on. Guessing that it reverts to Limp Home where it started at initialization. In that senario, there is no DTC unless it happens for four consecutive ignition cycles.

Curiously, I don't see why the system would need to write the TGS position to memory. If in fact TGS1 is 5v and TGS2 is 0v at the grip's idle position, the system should know it is in an idle state. What are the voltages when the throttle is rolled completely forward?

I apologize if I sounded like a know it all. However, if you read enough of these threads, you will get the impression that nobody has actually worked on these problems. The dealers don't know what to do other than tell you to cycle the ignition. The Moco has identified what it thinks the issue is and has a download for it. Without troubleshooting while it is broken. The fix is nothing more than an educated guess.
 

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Mine happens to be perfect and can't get all futzed up with charms, incantations and shutdown rituals. Nor does rolling the throttle forward do anything other than disengage the CC.
:clap::clap:

I was going to get in this with something similar to that, but you said it all, and said it well.

Truly mind-boggling there is such a high fog-count on FBW. Forums can be an information resource, but most of what I've seen on FBW is total mis-information. There are way too many people, including "authority figures" like dealership service people, if we can believe the reports here, who are "often wrong, but never in doubt", but who insist on stating their opinions as fact.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
I had this high idle gremlin strike recently and I never use the kill switch to shut down...Happened one time only for no reason I can determine but the on/off cycle procedure worked to reset the idle speed. Go figure...


the service writer I talked to said: " the ECM reflash also allows the ECM to stay powered on for like 15 seconds after turn the power off, so that you should have released the throttle by now, and the ECM does it's housekeeping, and logs the Throttle Position as zero then"


that's worth the paper it's wrote on.


but it makes sense, since i was playing with the EITMS and messed my idle up ( it was high idling after ) and then it reset itself once i cycle the ignition 4 times

I don't think the MoCo knows much about anything, that's why the VW guys built the V-Rod for them.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
has anyone found a better solution?

my bike has started doing this again, i guess i have been causing it somehow.

but it's dang annoying to be setting in the dark at a stop light, feverishly trying to reset the idle speed before i get into the town proper, with bumper to bumper traffic.
 

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This has been a real problem child for me. I absolutely HATE the TBW on my 08 FLHX. I have tried doing every fix short of the reflash as my dealer went out of business and I don't want to take the bike to the next state in our current weather. My Service Writer also told me that rolling the throttle forward (while running) will cause this issue. I have made sure that after cycling the ignition switch 4 times SLOWLY and it is idling at 1K that when I shut it off there is absolutely no rolling of the throttle forward it will still periodically go back to 2k idle. I ride with 3 other bikes that are 08's and they have never had it happen. I have to cycle the ig switch about 3-4 times a week. It seems to happen most often when backing the bike out of the garage with the bike off - and I really don't see what that could be doing other than possibly rolling the throttle with the bike off which shouldn't make a bit of difference. I am sure that is coincidence, but that is the only time it seems to happen. I did find out that if when it is idling at 2K and you roll the throttle forward and hold it there till it idles down, then quickly return the throttle to its normal idle position - rock it forward quickly and then back to idle it will idle at just over 1K again, but will sometimes creep back up to 1500. All I know is this really pisses me off - not something one should have to deal with after spending 23K on a bike.
 

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Traz, I'm afraid you might have to get it to a dealer to get to the bottom of it. I have never had a problem with my idle but am curious what your problem is.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I have to cycle the ig switch about 3-4 times a week. It seems to happen most often when backing the bike out of the garage with the bike off - and I really don't see what that could be doing other than possibly rolling the throttle with the bike off which shouldn't make a bit of difference. I am sure that is coincidence, but that is the only time it seems to happen. I did find out that if when it is idling at 2K and you roll the throttle forward and hold it there till it idles down, then quickly return the throttle to its normal idle position - rock it forward quickly and then back to idle it will idle at just over 1K again, but will sometimes creep back up to 1500. All I know is this really pisses me off - not something one should have to deal with after spending 23K on a bike.
exactly what I am seeing.

i may get real ambitious and take mine to the dealer :beatdh:

PM me until you start to annoy me, and maybe i will do it, and report their findings to you, so you can fix yours to. it was 81 degrees here today :redrolf:

i started using the clutch against the front brake to keep the RPMS down while sitting still
 

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The high idle problem that most riders are experiencing can be eliminated in most cases by allowing the bike to come to an idle (1000 rpm +/- 50) before shutting the ignition switch off. With the new fuel injection that may take 4-5 seconds. I don't know how many riders I have seen who like to rev up their engines before shutting them off. If we still used carbs on the new bikes, that would not be a problem, but fuel injection is different.
The bikes internal computer will remember the speed the motor was running when it was shut off. If you had not allowed the engine to return to normal idle when you previously shut it off, then it would return to that higher speed that the computer remembered when it was last shut off.
If you experience the high idle problem then you need to reset the throttle position to zero.
To reset the throttle position to zero:
Cycle the ignition switch to the "On" then "Off" position four times, allowing 7-10 seconds between each cycle. The kill switch must be in the run position. Since the computer remembers the last four ignition cycles you will have retrained (zeroed) it by doing the reset.
Fuel injection is a great improvement over carbs but the technology to make them work is also much greater and complicated. Now we have to worry about air to fuel ratios at idle and atmospheric pressure and ambient air temps etc., etc. Thank the EPA for making everything run less efficient too, although the mpg has risen, if you can stand to run with a stock bike. What do they claim now, 52 mpg on a stock 96" bike? Ya right, down a mineshaft, maybe. Most rider get 40-42 mpg.
 

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The high idle problem that most riders are experiencing can be eliminated in most cases by]

Yes, Tex that was posted already if you read the previous posts, it sounds like they have something else is going on.
Yup, is I do let it idle for 15-20 seconds before shutting down, so that isn't it. That is exactly the way the I have understood the way 'cycling' works to reset the FI to a new zero setting - that is what I do on a regular basis. I am a technology freak, I like new stuff but with the FBW I feel they addressed an issue that wasn't there - there is nothing wrong with cables and they are a lot more reliable. Seeing the cables doesn't bother me, and the only plus I see is the way the cruise control works with the FBW - and it does work very well. I will take it in and have the ECM flashed and see if that helps, what I am really waiting for is the Thundermax ECM that works with the FBW.
 

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Thing that pizzes me off reading threads lke this is that it shouldn't be happening at all. I have TBW in my car and it doesn't give a rat's butt what I do. The idle's always correct, and no kind of incantations or jujuj bags are needed to simply drive down the road. I have nothing against technology, but maybe they need to get it right before they put it on a bike???? At least my car won't fall over if it dies while pulling out into traffic and turning.
 

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Thing that pizzes me off reading threads lke this is that it shouldn't be happening at all. I have TBW in my car and it doesn't give a rat's butt what I do. The idle's always correct, and no kind of incantations or jujuj bags are needed to simply drive down the road. I have nothing against technology, but maybe they need to get it right before they put it on a bike???? At least my car won't fall over if it dies while pulling out into traffic and turning.
This is the most intelligent post in this thread...........HD needs to step up on these "problems" that exist on the newer HDs with all the electronic stuff. Unexuseable to pay $20,000 for a bike and then do the R&R for the Manufacturer for them.
 

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So, I am sitting here and wondering at what point does constructive critcism stop and real criticism start?

The second thing I am wondering is why in the hell does the ECM have to know at what rpm the engine was at when it last stoped anyway? If I were writing the software, I would have the bike start at zero position every time it started (i.e. 1000 rpm +/-50 rpm). Somebody with a higher pay level and education, please enlighten me.
 

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So, I am sitting here and wondering at what point does constructive critcism stop and real criticism start?

The second thing I am wondering is why in the hell does the ECM have to know at what rpm the engine was at when it last stoped anyway? If I were writing the software, I would have the bike start at zero position every time it started (i.e. 1000 rpm +/-50 rpm). Somebody with a higher pay level and education, please enlighten me.

I'm certain I have a lower income than you but I did use a battery-operated device at a Holiday Inn Express once:whistle:

Zero is a relative term in the input/output (I/O) world, and the throttle control is a positioning device. Don't know if it's an incremental or absolute encoder or simply varying resistance, but in the robot world you simply have a homing command/function where the device goes to a "known place" and resets it's parameters to zero or any other preset coordinates to represent where it's at. If you move the robot or replace any components the zero has to be re-taught. Likewise any compensation for wear or incidental damage.
On throttle cable bikes "re-homing" was done by playing with the cable adjustment, and idle stop on carbed bikes. With the TBW throttles just think of the MoCo's desire to know the RMP as a way to make sure the cable is adjusted properly without taking either the encoder or actuator apart. It's not that it should have had to be done any more often than a cable adjustment, only that there's no good way to adjust electron flow with a knurled knob. Still doesn't explain why my TBW Pontiac Solstice only needs oil changes................
 

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Using the throttle to cancel you cruise control is not part of the problem.

The problem is rolling the throtlle forward and turning the bike off. When you turn the bike off the ECM stores the current position of the Electronic Throttle. This stored position is considered zero throttle control position by the ECM. So when you turn your bike back on the ECM sees that the throttle is not in the same position so it assumes that the rider has opened the throttle to the positive side of zero and thus adds more fuel to the cylinders, making the bike idle faster.
Since this is not a failure no DTC's are set. The bike is just doing what the rider has told it to do.

The rumor from HD is that they are going to delay shutting power off to the ECM by something like 10 seconds on the 08's via software, thus allowing for time for the rider to take his hand off the Electronic throttle and the springs in it zeroize itself. The 09's are supposed to come from the factory with this fix in place.

My '09 still does it. But resetting it isn't a major PITA... but still a PITA.
 

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That's why I have no desire to trade my '05 King & '04 carbed Fatty for a new sled--too much EPA mandated crapola. Cat converters,'02 sensors,TBW,lean running,glowing pipes,the hell with all that BS. How long will it be before your ECM is computer controlled remotely by the EPA? Don't laugh;it's gonna happen!!
 

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I got tired of the cold fast idle and took my '09 Ultra to the dealer today. Apparently there was some corrosion on the throttle control connector and the MoCo's recommendation was to clean the electrical contacts and cover them with di-electric grease. Hopefully this was the problem but I'll know for sure after some time.
 

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High Idle

On my son's '08 RK, if you roll the throttle forward and kill the engine, the next time you start it you will have a fast idle. We have done this just to check it out and almost every time he had a fast idle. He started using his right hand to turn off the bike. I wouldn't put too much faith in the Harley documentation. Engineers, Documentation Writers and Real Life don't always jive.

John
 
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