[PaulCummings]

I went w/ the "Branch Flowmetrics" kit. Branch; Heads, Cams, pistons.... The build pulled the following numbers on the dyno:

100hp
92torque


I feel I should be getting better numbers.... I am thinking that in order to get them I'll have c/o the throttle body & Injectors?


Tell me what you think...

 

[kken6217]

What exhaust are you using, are you using PC or SERT? You can publish the specs of the cam and some of the other more technical guys can comment.
Ken

 

[SILVER BULLET]

Those #s are typical for Branch heads ! I have had several people call me with Branch heads,there not happy ! They now have Dewey's heads,and now they are happy ! I had one guy call me and said he was making 100 hp. I asked him why he called ? He said he was only making 87 TQ ! Now he has Dewey's heads and Andrews 37G cams. 99hp and 106 TQ. Its on the web site.

 

[PaulCummings]

Those #s are typical for Branch heads ! I have had several people call me with Branch heads,there not happy ! They now have Dewey's heads,and now they are happy ! I had one guy call me and said he was making 100 hp. I asked him why he called ? He said he was only making 87 TQ ! Now he has Dewey's heads and Andrews 37G cams. 99hp and 106 TQ. Its on the web site.

Those are the type of numbers I was hoping for! What is it that's different between Dewey's and Branch's set up? On the branch site they claim 100+ HP & TQ or so for the pre 06 set up's...


As for the pipes I'm running the D&D fatcatz HIFLOW baffle & Power Commander..

 

[SILVER BULLET]

Branch has big ports and valves !They use a big ex.valve . They kill your TQ. Dewey's modified the NEW valves. Dewey's shapes the port but doesn't take out alot of metal ! The key is,the valves.

 

[PaulCummings]

Branch has big ports and valves !They use a big ex.valve . They kill your TQ. Dewey's modified the NEW valves. Dewey's shapes the port but doesn't take out alot of metal ! The key is,the valves.

Thanks Silver Bullet! I appreciate the education! But considering my current build, is there a remedy other than reworking the heads? Do you think that I could improve the torque numbers via the Throttle body & injectors?

 

[SILVER BULLET]

The larger throttle body is gonna hurt your TQ. You can play around with your baffles in your fat cat to try to pick up some more TQ.

 

[GRock]

Branch uses the idea that bigger is better. You,re numbers prove that it's not. Like the Bullet said, they use too large of a port and too large of an exhaust valve. As with many porters, you can LOSE power when the heads are hogged out. You will gain NOTHING in the all important Torque (power) department by going to larger injectors and TB. Your problem is that you have lost intake charge velocity and as long as those heads are on there, that can't be fixed to a degree that will get you back your lost power. You can close off a row in the baffle on the Fatcat, but when you are running 8 lbs of TQ LESS than HP on a 95" build instead of MORE, then you have a bit of a problem in the low to mid powerband, which just happens to be where most like to ride 90% of the time.

PS - What are you, or the tuner, using to adjust your fuel and timing maps on the dyno??

 

[Totenkopf]

Branch uses the idea that bigger is better. You,re numbers prove that it's not. Like the Bullet said, they use too large of a port and too large of an exhaust valve. As with many porters, you can LOSE power when the heads are hogged out. You will gain NOTHING in the all important Torque (power) department by going to larger injectors and TB. Your problem is that you have lost intake charge velocity and as long as those heads are on there, that can't be fixed to a degree that will get you back your lost power. You can close off a row in the baffle on the Fatcat, but when you are running 8 lbs of TQ LESS than HP on a 95" build instead of MORE, then you have a bit of a problem in the low to mid powerband, which just happens to be where most like to ride 90% of the time.

PS - What are you, or the tuner, using to adjust your fuel and timing maps on the dyno??

By the way, the Dakota Kid reworked Delphi throttlebody and intake with my street ported heads have not hurt my torque number at all and did pick me up 7 hp so far and we haven't finished the tune up yet due to dyno issues. Horsepower is still climbing very nicely right up to the rev limiter. Looking for another dyno right now.

 

[SILVER BULLET]

You need to take a look at the Branch heads,compare them with yours,you will see the difference.Dewey's heads are making 103 hp. and 108 TQ. with stock throttle body. Andrews 37G cams. 9.8 - 1 comp.

 

[HDMD88]

Bullet and GRock are correct....(man I haven't used those two names in a reply in a long time....feels and sounds good):thumbsup:
Anyway....velocity is a poor mans supercharger, with out it the cylinder fill is down and when cylinder fill is down the torque is way down.

 

[GRock]

By the way, the Dakota Kid reworked Delphi throttlebody and intake with my street ported heads have not hurt my torque number at all and did pick me up 7 hp so far and we haven't finished the tune up yet due to dyno issues. Horsepower is still climbing very nicely right up to the rev limiter. Looking for another dyno right now.

Totenkopf,
I saw where you had mentioned this issue once before and I will tell you this, you have not gained 7 HP (and you are anticipating as much as 10 according to one of your posts) with just the increase in the TB. Especially with the 37 cam. Either you had not fully tuned the bike before the swap out so that the "before" number you are using is low due to incomplete tune; or you had made other mods or adjustments to timing in addition to the Dakota Kid TB. Or a little of both. I just don't want anyone reading to think that there is that much power to be had from just a TB swap. If you are still climbing with the 37 at the limiter then you must have gone and done that minus cam timing event that you were talking about. That will allow you to get more room to gain ponies. But glad you are getting it dialed in.

 

[Totenkopf]

Totenkopf,
I saw where you had mentioned this issue once before and I will tell you this, you have not gained 7 HP (and you are anticipating as much as 10 according to one of your posts) with just the increase in the TB. Especially with the 37 cam. Either you had not fully tuned the bike before the swap out so that the "before" number you are using is low due to incomplete tune; or you had made other mods or adjustments to timing in addition to the Dakota Kid TB. Or a little of both. I just don't want anyone reading to think that there is that much power to be had from just a TB swap. But glad you are getting it dialed in.

GRock, You are correct! (as usual :yes: ) When we had my bike on the lift, we also went with 1.675:1 rockers and turned the 2* cam key around in response to what we were seeing in the previous dyno pulls and SERT data logs. I was wrong to imply that it was all TB/intake, my intention was not to mislead anyone but to make the point that the torque did not take a nose dive with this larger TB/intake as was implied in another post. I believe not all larger TB's and intakes are the same. Is this not true?

 

[GRock]

GRock, You are correct! (as usual :yes: ) When we had my bike on the lift, we also went with 1.675:1 rockers and turned the 2* cam key around in response to what we were seeing in the previous dyno pulls and SERT data logs. I was wrong to imply that it was all TB/intake, my intention was not to mislead anyone but to make the point that the torque did not take a nose dive with this larger TB/intake as was implied in another post. I believe not all larger TB's and intakes are the same. Is this not true?

I thought so. (Actually I knew so!!)
You are absolutely right about difference in TB's! And the Dakota Kid funnel bore shape really is nice improvement over stock in size, velocity, and finish. Nice alternative to going with these outrageous, overpriced throttle body sizes that have no business being on 95's. It is rare to lose appeciable amount of TQ on 95 builds just because of larger TB, but you can lose a few lbs in some cases. Turning that key around to the other side gives you a 4 degree difference from before and after and it certainly does open up the top of the powerband so that you can continue to build HP right to the end. And, of course, opening up the valve lift ratio will help gains on the upper also. The 37 without the key or with the advance tends to flatten out a few hundred before 6000. Be sure to let us know the final numbers on that set up as that roller ratio, cam retard thing for the 37 is something that we haven't done and sounds interesting now that I think about it. We got quite a few builds coming in here now that winter is almost upon us and I'm going to try that 37 straight up with the increased ratio rockers just for the hell of it.

 

[Totenkopf]

GRock,
What I find very interesting is that with the swing of 4* retard in valve timing of the 37g from the 2* advanced point I started with, the torque curve shifted over only 75 rpm below the torque peak and the peak occurs essentially in the same spot at 3600 and the whole upper band above the peak is lifted substantially. Exactly the effect I was looking for, now, just a little bit more tuning to do to get the last bit of power to come out!

I am also using a low restriction exhaust that has about a 5 lb dip around 2600 but it comes alive right after that, I assume that is the pipe starting to scavenge.

Basically, I have 80 ft-lbs (or higher) from just below 2000 all the way to 5750 rpm and the hp is climbing nicely right into the rev limiter. Apparently indicating that I'm not running out of intake or port flow, even with stock valve sizes.

I know you deal with this all the time but I'm enjoying the heck out of this! and as soon as we find more dyno time and get'er done, I will post the final numbers. Otto thinks the final numbers might be 102+ lbs and close to or at 100hp and that is with the LSR.

Apologies to Paul for sidetracking his thread!!

 

[GRock]

GRock,
What I find very interesting is that with the swing of 4* retard in valve timing of the 37g from the 2* advanced point I started with, the torque curve shifted over only 75 rpm below the torque peak and the peak occurs essentially in the same spot at 3600 and the whole upper band above the peak is lifted substantially. Exactly the effect I was looking for, now, just a little bit more tuning to do to get the last bit of power to come out!

I am also using a low restriction exhaust that has about a 5 lb dip around 2600 but it comes alive right after that, I assume that is the pipe starting to scavenge.

Basically, I have 80 ft-lbs (or higher) from just below 2000 all the way to 5750 rpm and the hp is climbing nicely right into the rev limiter. Apparently indicating that I'm not running out of intake or port flow, even with stock valve sizes.

I know you deal with this all the time but I'm enjoying the heck out of this! and as soon as we find more dyno time and get'er done, I will post the final numbers. Otto thinks the final numbers might be 102+ lbs and close to or at 100hp and that is with the LSR.

Apologies to Paul for sidetracking his thread!!

You may have a small gain in TQ due to higher intake pressure that is partially masking the movement of the band. That, along with the higher lift of the altered ratio cam, is the reason that the power band is not moving much. As for the LSR, that dip is characteristic of that pipe that really we have better results with on larger cubes. You should find that you are a bit lean on the front jug with that set up so don't be afraid to add 3 or 4% for fuel to the front only from about 3400 and up AND try a 2 - 4 degree timing advance offset in the rear cylinder all the way up the scale. It should feel a bit smoother and may help you regain some of that dip, although difficult to do with that LSR and not uncommon with that cam timing change as you are taking just a bit longer to get "on the cam". Best of luck! Pretty good numbers!

 

[Totenkopf]

Thanks for the advice! I can instantly tell that you know this pipe!

Before this set of changes, I had already added up to 5% or 6% more fuel into the front jug and had the rear advanced 1-2* over the front based on reading the plugs. AND noted the smoother nature of the motor, EXACTLY as you called it in your last post! When we were on the dyno last Monday with the same previous map in the ecu, on the very first pulls that I data logged, we saw that the motor was hitting the knock sensor pretty good (between 2 - 3.5% retard in both cylinders from 3500 on up). So we added fuel and backed off the timing 1-2* and instantly saw nice power gains but then we started having problems with this dyno's computer locking up and we ran out of time, a 5pm hard stop. So, she is only partially tuned on WOT and because there is no load brake on this dyno, none of the cruise or transitory VE and spark cells are adjusted yet. We are looking for a better dyno right now so we can finish.

GRock, I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate the insight that you already shared! It let me know that I'm on the right track with the tuning. I'm also guessing that the LSR is OVER scavenging the front cylinder a bit when the collector starts working above the torque dip.

 

[GRock]

GRock, I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate the insight that you already shared! It let me know that I'm on the right track with the tuning. I'm also guessing that the LSR is OVER scavenging the front cylinder a bit when the collector starts working above the torque dip.

Toten,
The LSR DOES over scavenge on the front a bit, but remember this..... over scavenging really becomes a problems when the charge is literally yanked right thru the chamber during a high overlap, long duration cam event. You don't have that problem even with the high ratio rockers. You can correct exactly as you have done.... by richening up the front and smoothing everything out with rear cylinder offset. I appreciate the kind words, but you guys seem like you have a good handle on this thing already. Had a conversation with a customer today with an 04 Heritage that I'm going to turn into a 103" with the 37 and 1.675's and a set of Deweys Heads with a 1.94 intake valve to take advantage of the higher lift. Should be a nice blend of arm yanking power on the bottom end and staying hard on the HP to the limiter. Winter is real close here in New England so time to build some power into the locals toys. And I don't mean snow throwers!!

 

[Don Dorfman]

I thought the 2006s have a 44mm Throttle body. Also regardless of ports the branch welded chambers has to inhibit breathing (valves schrouded)

 

[GRock]

I thought the 2006s have a 44mm Throttle body. Also regardless of ports the branch welded chambers has to inhibit breathing (valves schrouded)

Actually they weld up the combustion chambers so that they can rework them to their liking. They releive the sides of the combustion chamber and at the ends, so they actually do unshroud the valves. At least they used to....haven't seen a set of these come out of the shop since Jerry sold out a few years back.